TargetTalk

i know a lot of juniors who start out on anschutz 1903 rifles...

i know (well assume) anschutz sells a lot of 1913 rifles. or they wouldnt keep selling them...

how is a 1913 rifle better than a 1903? ive heard that a kid shooting an '03 will get TO college but wont be able to get THROUGH college without moving up to a '13...

im just curious what it is about the more expensive models that make them shoot so much better than the "one jagged hole" sized group that the '03 can shoot with good ammo...

im aware of the precise stocks and all that but im curious about the actions...

"Confusion" is the right word for it. I am sure that the people at Anschutz have "marketing experts" on the staff, but some of the things they do with model numbers is incomprehensible and Byzantine.

Now to start, the stocks and actions have different numbers and sometimes the barrels. There are two things to remember though about actions. There is a 54 action a 20 action and a 64 action. The 54 and 20 are the best actions. The 64 action is the one with the black band over the top of the bolt. It is a smaller action designed for shooting by new or less serious shooters.

The 54 action is the action in a 19 series Anschutz. It is bigger, stiffer and faster than any other action they have made. The speed of the action and trigger is substantially faster than any of their other actions and speed is an essential in shooting smallbore. The barrels come in 2 configurations . 1907 and 1913. The 1907 is smaller and lighter.

Now on to college. Almost no one in college shoots with a standard rifle, which the 1903 is. Some variation of the free rifle stock is almost required for success. The hook butt plate and adjustable cheek piece are especially good. And to make it worse there are many variations of adjustments on the stock, the more the better.

I don't know where you buy your equipment but Champion Shooters Supply and Champions Choice are two places that can help.

The bottom line is, if you want a scholarship for shooting you should get the best equipment possible as soon as possible, because the competiton is shooting it. Now the really bad news, to get fully equipped for smallbore and air will cost about $10,000 new so he had better get a scholarship.

The 1903 is a 64 action. A 54 action has a faster lock time and a better trigger, but the 64 would be fine for a new shooter if cost is an issue. For three position these advantages aren't as important as in prone. Creedmoor offers a 1903 with sights for a decent price.

Mark

If the shooter is under 6' tall, there is a 1912 for sale on the US Rifle Team Long Range forum.

Mark

The 64 action in the 1903 is adequate for its intended purpose as a beginner rifle, but built to a price point, its lesser and lighter design and construction are problematic in high-mileage rifles. Out of our fleet of 30 or so well-used club rifles, including 54's, W300's, 40X's, K82G's, 513's, 64's and Achievers, the one or two typically out of service are 64's or Achievers suffering from light primer strikes, which can be real head-scratchers to diagnose and correct. ;)

patriot wrote:If the shooter is under 6' tall, there is a 1912 for sale on the US Rifle Team Long Range forum.

Mark

It's listed on here, as well as on NationalMatch.us


The 1912 is Anschutz's first attempt at a Women's Sport Rifle, once the ISSF changed rules in 1997 no longer requiring women to shoot standard rifle.

It's a 1907-barreled action (Match 54 action, 660mm long barrel 22mm thick. A 1913 barrel is 690mm long and 24mm thick) in a lighter weight version of the 1913 free rifle stock. The current equivalent is the 1907 in 1914 stock shown here. http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... y&c=FITAAN

jjbduke2004 wrote:The 1912 is Anschutz's first attempt at a Women's Sport Rifle, once the ISSF changed rules in 1997 no longer requiring women to shoot standard rifle.

It's a 1907-barreled action (Match 54 action, 660mm long barrel 22mm thick. A 1913 barrel is 690mm long and 24mm thick) in a lighter weight version of the 1913 free rifle stock. The current equivalent is the 1907 in 1914 stock shown here. http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... y&c=FITAAN

While many have felt that the 1912 and 1914 are "girlie guns" I REALLY like them for even my younger or slighter guys. My oldest shoots the 1912. 1912s are hard to find now and the 1914 is only a few oz heavier due to the slightly added adjustability of the cheekpiece.

My youngest daughter shoots the slightly heavier 1913 and she's not that big of gal. She just likes a bit heavier rifle, but not the weight of the metal stocks for the 54 actions or the 20 action/stocks.

patriot wrote:If the shooter is under 6' tall, there is a 1912 for sale on the US Rifle Team Long Range forum.

Mark

That is a nice rifle, somebody should buy that thing! ;-)

wow...

i might have to bookmark this thread!

my daughter is currently using a 1903 i got from here...

shes 5'4" or so and in 8th grade...

i had just heard the comment about "...not getting THROUGH..." so i was hoping for some insight and WOW! i got it!!!

thanks so much...

NOW that i know whats what about that anschutz thats for sale, ill look a little closer at it. probably wont buy it ($3000 in air rifles and .22 this past fall) but i CAN look, now that i know whats what...

As well as the limitations of the action, there are also limitations with the stock. With the 1903 if you outgrow the factory stock, there are no factory/aftermarket upgrades. This is because it's considered a beginner rifle, so most folks will think of replacing the entire rifle when the time comes. It's different with the 1913/1907; primarily because the factory stocks are more advanced, but if you happen not to want a factory stock there are many aftermarket designs from which to chose. This is quite handy if you buy an older 1913/1907 (or their 1813/1807, 1613/1607, 1413/1407 predecessors), and want to update it.

If affordability or return-on-investment is an issue, which is understandable in teens not ready to commit to the sport, I've had great results with older 54's with lighter 07-size barrels. They run around 10 pounds (two more than the less expensive Match 64), generally come with better triggers, balance at the front of the receiver ring and can be put back into modern service with very little work and expense. Duffy and Lock-Stock-Barrel import them regularly and sell them for as little as $500.



http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46473

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =463453010

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13222177

Bob your response with the two examples on auction sites is very much an apples and oranges comparison. The first is a $500 Anschutz 1407 from about 1965 with a serial number of 10557. The barrel is covered in rust, single extractor non adjustable butt plate and one stage trigger. In my opinion this gun is not even worth the $500.

The second rifle is not even an Anschutz.

I believe this girl is ready to step up to a more advanced and modern rifle if she is really interested in shooting. And that is an issue for her parents and their wallet.

gwsb wrote:Bob your response with the two examples on auction sites is very much an apples and oranges comparison. The first is a $500 Anschutz 1407 from about 1965 with a serial number of 10557. The barrel is covered in rust, single extractor non adjustable butt plate and one stage trigger. In my opinion this gun is not even worth the $500.

The second rifle is not even an Anschutz.

I believe this girl is ready to step up to a more advanced and modern rifle if she is really interested in shooting. And that is an issue for her parents and their wallet.

I think you are being actually quite optimistic about the age of that 1407, although I'm not even sure it would have been a 1407 at that age. The foresight mount is the very early design, which along with the S/N would probably push the age well back into the 1950's. I've seen 1413's in that S/N range that have been confirmed through other sources to date from 58. After about 62 the last two digits of the year are part of the proof mark.

As you say I would consider neither of those two referenced rifles as suitable for someone who is moving on from a XX03. The Anschutz has has a stock that is both very old fashioned, and non adjustable so no advantage over the XX03. I would suggest that although the stock of the Weihrauch is of a slightly more modern configuration as far as Standard Rifles go, it is still not adjustable. Also I feel that the HW60 action is really only comparable to the 64 action not the 54, so again no advantage over a 1803 (if it were of similar vintage).

If I were looking for a second rifle (or even a first rifle for someone who has been shooting a club rifle for a while) for a junior to progress with, and buying new was not an option, then I would be looking initially for the most modern 18/1907 I could find. I would not really look at anything older than that. That would make the rifle date from the 80's so that even if it is in a Standard Rifle stock there would be some adjustability with LoP and cheek piece height, even if only with spacers.

I would also accept that I would probably need to then start looking to upgrade the stock to something more modern. Something that was actually designed with the current rules in mind. Personally I think the 690mm barrel is too much for weight up front if you are going to be shooting positional matches. If I could not afford a modern ally stock then I feel that a 18/1907 (660mm) action in a 18/1913 stock would actually be better. I know how hard it is for my daughter to manage with my 1813 with the 690mm barrel. I know she would be a lot more comfortable with the 660 in there instead.

Alan

gwsb wrote:Bob your response with the two examples on auction sites is very much an apples and oranges comparison. The first is a $500 Anschutz 1407 from about 1965 with a serial number of 10557. The barrel is covered in rust, single extractor non adjustable butt plate and one stage trigger. In my opinion this gun is not even worth the $500.

The second rifle is not even an Anschutz.

I believe this girl is ready to step up to a more advanced and modern rifle if she is really interested in shooting. And that is an issue for her parents and their wallet.

The intent was to provide the OP with two reliable vendors of used target rifles, and a couple examples of simple, inexpensive and effective rehabs for a total cost of half the $1500+ price of a new 1903 or less, today's 1903 offering no real advantages in its factory buttplate. Somehow I suspect he can make his own judgments from there.

thanks for all the thoughts everyone...

i was mostly trying to find out what the difference was between the 2 different receivers. thats all....

I shot a 1407 in college which may explain why I'm a fan. I've restored one for my son, another for myself, and helped a friend purchase a third. All three have the two stage trigger. Today they may be more appropriate as a starter 3P rifle, but those early 1970 barrels will shoot.

Mark

Ltdave wrote:thanks for all the thoughts everyone...

i was mostly trying to find out what the difference was between the 2 different receivers. thats all....

1903 has a 64 action and the 1913 has the 54 super match action. The 54 is much better IMO.

A friend shoots a brand new 1903, it's not to my fancy, but it does shoot.

Andre wrote:
1903 has a 64 action and the 1913 has the 54 super match action

No, the 1913 does not have a Super Match action. It is a Supermatch rifle, but this refers to the combination of heavy barrel and free rifle stock. Back in the 1950s, before the now familiar model numbers were introduced, Anschutz called their top of the line model the Super Match 54 to distinguish it from the regular straight-stocked Match 54 rifle. The actions were the same between the two. Today there is no difference in the action of a 1913 and that of a 1907.

Tim S wrote:

Andre wrote:
1903 has a 64 action and the 1913 has the 54 super match action

No, the 1913 does not have a Super Match action. It is a Supermatch rifle, but this refers to the combination of heavy barrel and free rifle stock. Back in the 1950s, before the now familiar model numbers were introduced, Anschutz called their top of the line model the Super Match 54 to distinguish it from the regular straight-stocked Match 54 rifle. The actions were the same between the two. Today there is no difference in the action of a 1913 and that of a 1907.

Somebody posted here (Or RFC?) a flyer for anschutz actions, and there was a difference between the 54 and 54 super match. The plain 54 had a flat bolt cap, and the super match had a cone bolt cap (Bolt cap, as in behind the bolt handle.)

I'm probably wrong though., as that's all I really know about the difference between the two.

No, that's just the difference between the pre-'77 1400 rifles and the later 1600, 1800, and 1900 rifles. The basic action dimensions, lock-up etc haven't changed since 1954. Yes the firing pin time has been reduced, but the name of the action hasn't changed.

The 2013 was initially labelled the Super Match Special, but it did have a new receiver, stock, and short barrel/tube combo compared to the then current 1913.