TargetTalk

Hi, as is hinted in the topic I used to shoot primarily small-bore and air rifle as a youth and now, 15 years later, I´ve decided to come back to the sport. I want to buy my own rifle pretty much as soon as possible, due to club rifles often being less than satisfying, especially ergonomically speaking.

However I can't really decide what kind of rifle I want to go with. Brandwise it's pretty much between Feinwerkbau and Anschutz since they are by far the easiest to get serviced around here and I'm leaning towards either the Anschutz 1907 standard rifle (I guess you would call it, not entirely sure) or the 1918 aluminum stock.

The thing is I know that I'm going to be god awful in the beginning, since I've already tried some air rifle recently, so I'll be far worse than what any of these rifles are capable of shooting. I don't want to waste money on the much more expensive 1918 if the 1907 would be satisfactory, but I also don't want to buy a rifle that I don't feel entirely comfortable with and then change my mind.

So I guess that what I'm looking for really, is some advice maybe from someone that have used both these stocks, and share their opinion on whether it might be worth the extra money on the more expensive stock. I'm primarily concerned with ergonomics, adjustability etc. I will probably only be shooting prone since it feels like I'm too old to start practicing 3p at the age of 30.

I might add that I was a fairly good youth shooter in prone with an average of maybe 195/200 with club rifle and budget ammo, so a decent rifle might not be a complete waste on me ;)

Sorry about the essay, but I would really appreciate some advice and in particular your thoughts on the 1907 standard rifle :)

Hi,

I don't think you need to apologise. It's only sensible to ask advice before making an expensive purchase.

If you plan on shooting regularly, and want to reach (or better) your old standard, the the 1918 (or FWB equivalent) is the better choice. It has much more ergonomic adjustment than a 1907, and is likely to give better scores in the long term. The 1907 isn't a bad rifle, but the stock isn't ideal for prone (particularly the deep fore-end and low butt).

However the 1918 may be too much while you re-learn your technique. During this period, the simpler 1907 will be good enough, and you won't be distracted by the adjustments of the 1918. Also if you do not have access to a coach, it is possible to make a very ergonomic stock fit so badly that shooting becomes more difficult.

Unless the club rifles available are very very old, or bad, it might be sensible to shoot these until you are confident that you can make use of a fancy rifle. But if you can't shoot a club rifle, you could get the 1907 and replace the stock later when you want more ergonomic adjustment.

Have you considered a used rifle? In Britian, most new shooters will buy a used rifle first time. If you can find an older Free rifle like an 1813, or wood-stocked 1913, this would be a good compromise. An 1813 is better than a 1907, but not as complex as a 1918.

Thanks for your reply Tim

Yes, the plan is to shoot at least once a week with the occasional local competition, at least to start with. What you're saying about the 1907 not being ideal for prone, is what I suspected, but I have forgotten many of the things I used to know about rifle shooting so I wasn't sure. Also the entire fore-end seems pretty "bulky". I'm not a big guy (about 5'8"), so my hands are pretty small and a wide fore-end seems intuitively more uncomfortable than a narrower one. But that's pretty easy to get a quick feel for, holding both rifles.

You're probably right about the 1918 being a bit too much in the beginning, while relearning the basics. I do however have access to a couple of coaches, that I assume are at least good enough to spot and correct any major flaws in my position due to improper settings of the stock. But I still think it's probably better to start out simple.

I have considered a used rifle, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an abundance of them for sale. The match shooting community in Sweden, it seems, have shrunk considerably the past few decades so finding a used rifle within a reasonable driving distance doesn't seem to be that easy. But I will certainly keep my eye out for the 1813 and the wood-stocked 1918, as well as the ones I mentioned. The small bore season doesn't start until April in Sweden, so i still have a few months to both consider my options and look for used rifles.

Also consider an 1811 (prone model) if you run across one. It will be cheaper than an 1813, yet will have the basic adjustments needed for prone as well as the proper stock contour. It will also be a little lighter than the 1813.

beye wrote:Also consider an 1811 (prone model) if you run across one. It will be cheaper than an 1813, yet will have the basic adjustments needed for prone as well as the proper stock contour. It will also be a little lighter than the 1813.

I looked it up and it seems like a nice solid rifle, will definitely consider it.

Btw, does most new accessories fit these stocks (1811 & 1813)? I'm mainly concerned with whether I can fit for instance a new MEC butt plate. The reason being that swedish national rules prohibits the use of hooks (among other things) and I would most likely be shooting most competitions under national rules rather than ISSF rules.

A MEC hook can be fitted to an 1813. It would not be so easy with an 1811, the butt or the plate may need to have extra holes drilled for the fixing screws. Also the 1811 has a long butt as standard, longer than the 1907, 1813 or 1918 Precise; you may need to cut down the 1811 stock when fitting the MEC butt to ensure it's not too long.

Tim S wrote:A MEC hook can be fitted to an 1813. It would not be so easy with an 1811, the butt or the plate may need to have extra holes drilled for the fixing screws. Also the 1811 has a long butt as standard, longer than the 1907, 1813 or 1918 Precise; you may need to cut down the 1811 stock when fitting the MEC butt to ensure it's not too long.

If I need to cut down the stock to get reasonable lenght on the butt, I'm probably gonna go for a different stock. A butt plate with no hook or removable hook is a must have pretty much because of our national rules. I don't necessarily need to fit a MEC butt plate, but I would want at least a decent butt plate.

With the factory buttplate, the 1811 would be usable - maybe a little long depending on your build; it's only if you want to add a longer metal butt that it would become much too long. It was designed in the 1970s when prone positions were usually wider and lower than today.

The factory butt is a simple plastic plate, it can be moved up or down by 3cm.

I would recommend a custom made prone stock for an adult. I don't know if anyone in Europe does them but in America the best I have ever seen is done by Alex Sitman at Masterclassstocks.com

He can build you a rifle that will fit perfectly and shoot 10s all day.

Tim S wrote:With the factory buttplate, the 1811 would be usable - maybe a little long depending on your build; it's only if you want to add a longer metal butt that it would become much too long. It was designed in the 1970s when prone positions were usually wider and lower than today.

The factory butt is a simple plastic plate, it can be moved up or down by 3cm.

Since I'm only about 5'8" I would assume that the butt would be a tad too long then, but I would of course try it out before buying. I'm really not too fond of the old plastic buttplates with next to no curvature, so I'm guessing that I would want to replace that.

gwsb wrote:I would recommend a custom made prone stock for an adult. I don't know if anyone in Europe does them but in America the best I have ever seen is done by Alex Sitman at Masterclassstocks.com

He can build you a rifle that will fit perfectly and shoot 10s all day.

To make use of a custom stock I would guess that I really need to be comfortable in my position first to be able to tell what I actually would need or want from a stock. At this point it would seem like something of a waste to have a custom stock made.

I don't know if anyone in Europe makes custom stocks, I'm pretty sure that no one in Sweden does though. I wouldn't really have any problems ordering from overseas though, should I feel the need for a custom stock.

I'll check the site out, but my first thought is that a custom stock feels a bit excessive at this point :)

Given the levels of adjustability that are possible with the current aluminium based stocks I really see no need for a custom stock on a match rifle. The advantage that the adjustability gives you is that it is actually more likely to fit correctly, and if you do put on a few pounds/Kgs the adjustment is there to correct the fit, something you would not have on a custom stock, even one that was "made to measure". For many years I shot my 1813, and thought that it was great, I didn't really see the need for more adjustment. Then I did a bit of Air Rifle shooting using a Walther LG400 Alutec. Now I see what I was missing by not moving to a new ally stock for my Anschutz.

Alan

As you were brought up in the sport, I suspect you'll progress faster than you are planning. Further, in the 15 years you've been gone, the improvements in stock adjustment and scoring have been significant. You also have a stature more than adequate for a full-up, 14-pound Free Rifle. Accordingly I'd leave the old UIT Standard Rifles (however modernized with new hardware) to the juniors coming up and acquire something immediately competitive.

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... em=2789582

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... em=2788446



I really like the newer Walther KK300's, regardless of which aluminum stock they come with. Our club just bought several from another program switching entirely to air rifle, and here they can be had on the used market at excellent prices. These come complete with sights, hardware and cases and have excellent triggers and stock adjustments combined with a shorter bolt throw than average.

Bob

Yeah, I've already pretty much decided to go for a free rifle. I've been looking at the Walther KK300 too and it seems nice and comes with pretty much everything I want on a rifle. What's the difference between the version you posted a picture of here and the anatomic stock? The price of the anatomic is a hell of a lot higher, so I assume that there has to be some major differences to warrant the difference in price?

For the extra thousand dollars for an Anatomic you get a stock that can be fully adjusted while you are strapped into position.

All the KK300's we've purchased haven't arrived yet, but trying one out with the more basic stock was interesting. Compared to my 1413, 1613 and 1407, I found it to be a very "forgiving" rifle, in that I was scoring in offhand better than my calls. Probably because of the excellent trigger and balance. The rifle doesn't feel it is as heavy as it is.

The Anatomic stock is made from laminated wood (fancy plywood). The rifle in Bob's post is cast aluminium. The Anatomic is marketed as offering the same adjustment as alu stocks (not like the basic "Universal" model - also wood laminate) but with "feel" and vibration characteristics* of wood, and without solid wood's sensitivity to temperature and humidity. The action/barrel/trigger are exactly the same between the Alutec and Anatomic. I believe that initially both came with the same rearsight, but now the Anatomic has a different one.

*Some shooters feel that alu stocks don't absorb the vibrations created in the barrel/action as well as wood.

I have no reservations saying you will be happy with the KK300, having bought two for female shooters. We have the light version. The normal version, heavy barrel is too heavy to use under ISSF rules for female shooters. It probably squeeks by on weight out of the box but then you cant add anything to it like a tube or weights or? If the light or the heavy barrel is more accurate I don't know. My oldest set NRA standing record this summer with the factory light barrel and a 8 or 10 inch tube. For a serious adult male shooter I would be thinking about the heavy barrel. If it was more muzzle heavy than I wanted I would have it cut short and put a long tube on it for 3P. I doubt you can make the light barrel shorter.

Bob: Being able to make all the adjustments in position does sound nice, but wouldn't pay an extra $1000 for it. The price difference in Sweden between these two, is also about $1500, not $1000, so that's not sweetening the deal :P

Tim: So would you say that the anatomic is worth the extra money? Also I seem to remember reading about a problem with an Anschutz rifle made out of cast aluminum, more specifically that it was prone to snapping at some weak spot. Should I expect there to be a problem like this with the KK300 alu?

redschietti: I'm definitely going for a full weight rifle, even though it's actually pretty close to the maximum weight under our national rules as well. Should I feel the need for extra weights or a tube I could always stick to shooting competitions under ISSF rules. I don't think there's any difference in accuracy between the regular and the lightweight though, but intuitively a heavier rifle should generate less movement assuming it's not too heavy for the shooter.

Very true, but in 3P its as much about balance as weight. A lighter gun you have more option to adjust the balance. My 15 yr old "whimpy girl" shoots a 6.5 kilo gun. In a good position, its not heavy. If you are just shooting prone go with the heavy barrel for sure.

[quote="hebbe84"]Tim: So would you say that the anatomic is worth the extra money? Also I seem to remember reading about a problem with an Anschutz rifle made out of cast aluminum, more specifically that it was prone to snapping at some weak spot. Should I expect there to be a problem like this with the KK300 alu?

That's a difficult question to answer. I haven't handled the anatomic, although every review I've seen has been largely favourable. Personally I like the British Gemini stocks; I've been lucky to buy two second hand, but in very good condition.

There have been instances of the Anschutz 2213/2313 cast stock cracking behind the grip; if I remember correctly most/all occurred from pressure at the side when the rifle was cased, not during normal use. I imagine the KK300 alu could suffer the same problem, but it's a pretty rare occurrence.

redschietti wrote:Very true, but in 3P its as much about balance as weight. A lighter gun you have more option to adjust the balance. My 15 yr old "whimpy girl" shoots a 6.5 kilo gun. In a good position, its not heavy. If you are just shooting prone go with the heavy barrel for sure.

I'm probably gonna practice 3P at some point, but I sincerely doubt that I could learn it well enough this late to be competitive, so most likely I will shoot mainly prone.

Tim S wrote: That's a difficult question to answer. I haven't handled the anatomic, although every review I've seen has been largely favourable. Personally I like the British Gemini stocks; I've been lucky to buy two second hand, but in very good condition.

There have been instances of the Anschutz 2213/2313 cast stock cracking behind the grip; if I remember correctly most/all occurred from pressure at the side when the rifle was cased, not during normal use. I imagine the KK300 alu could suffer the same problem, but it's a pretty rare occurrence.

Hopefully I'll get the chance to shoot them both before deciding anything. The anatomic is going to have to feel a hell of a lot better for me to pay $1500 more for it :P Unfortunately I don't have high hopes of finding a used one.

Ok, it doesn't feel like too big of a risk with the cast stock then.