TargetTalk

OK I have been shooting SB for a couple of months now and done a lot of shooting with the SCATT. All the SCATT results tell me (Shift and Co-ordination Graphs) that I should be releasing the shot ~1 second earlier than I am.

Given, on the whole, I am holding inside the 10 and my POI could actually be anywhere (but generally high and a little right), are the graphs representing my poor triggering or that I am holding too long or is it a symptom of poor shot release and an indication that it is taking me ~ 1 second to trigger the shot having seen the 'ideal' sight picture/hold?

The really annoying thing is that the trace, before and after the trigger are all inside the 10 with the POI as far out as the 8 ring (but usually no worse than a 9.5).

Cheers

David

Hi David
What is your Scatt "F" coefficient set at? (I use 40 for prone). The default setting of 75 will cause the shots to go much further out than expected.

If that is 40 then my guess is that your shot release is disturbing your 10 ring hold.
Without seeing your Scatt trace it is hard to say.
It would make it easier if you used the snipping tool to paste some traces so we could see.
Cheers
Martin

Yes I have it set to 40. Here are a range of samples (I can't find the one I popped off into the 8 ring - I might have deleted it in disgust.....)

For me that looks like you don't have you NPA in the middle. You see that the red line is very close to where the shot landed and that red line is where you are sighting after the shot and that is for me a indication that when your muscles relax then your muscle swings to a place near the where the shot landed. I find that on the SCATT the shot travels further away than if you did the same mistake in real life.

The gray line and the red line should be at the same point as your shot.

Hi, You have a very good hold, but it appears you are holding too long. When the hold is inside the ten, the shot should have been released.
Possibly some time spent learning how to hold more pressure on the trigger, earlier, to aid in having the shot release effortlessly. Good luck.

Hi David, it's difficult to be sure from static traces but I'd suggest there are a few areas for improvement here...

Firstly, are you holding too long? Probably yes. I'd suggest that it would be good to go from the entry point of the trace into the bull right through to the shot release in the 5 second window of your SCATT capture time.

Secondly, is there a trigger issue? This is more difficult to tell. I'd respectfully disagree that your hold is particularly good for a prone shooter - it's about what I would expect from a Club standard shooter. On some of the traces there seems to be a rhythmic movement which would indicate pulse transmission. On others the hold just seems a little "loose" which may be due to insufficient relaxation, using muscle to steer the rifle onto the target or just a generally unstable position - or even using a very small foresight element and hunting for the right sight picture.
Shots that jump out of the hold pattern like you are seeing happen because the barrel is moving quickly across the target at the moment of release - like shooting ON the pulse rather than between them. I'd guess that you're getting "L" values of 70 to 90mm which could definitely be improved upon with a little trial and error...

So what to do about it?
My suggestion would be
1) doing some Progressive Muscular Relaxation exercises to make you more aware of the inner tensions in your position with a view to minimising them. Relaxation is key.
2) Playing around with the point that the sling locates on your left upper arm. I have found that getting that right can dramatically cut down the disturbance caused by pulse which results in a smaller hold pattern and fewer shots out of the hold pattern. For me, higher is better. Low and medium sling positions produce pulse.
3) THEN look at your triggering.

Just my 2€...

Ken.

The shape of your pulse looks to be quite long in the 3 o'clock to 7 o'clock directions.
I have just spent the last 4 weeks working on the shape of my pulse trace. Initially I worked on trying to get my L value low but found what was more important for my scores was to have a high % 10a figure. By adjusting hand stop and sling position I managed to have a 10a figure close 100% but my L value was quite high around 50. My L value was hight because my pulse trace although long wiggles around a lot more but it's doing this inside the 10/10.5 ring. Where as before I had quite an oval shape to my trace from about 3-9o'clock which went outside the 10 ring each side. This was pushing the shots left and right but my L value was around 40 yet 10a only around 75%.

The Scatt is a great tool to tuning your set up. Make sure you make a note of your current set up so you can return to it. Then just go for it with the changes and fine tuning make sure you take lots of notes of what you are doing and any improvements. If you don't take notes you will just get lost. Play with handstop position and offset, Sling tension, height, how tight the sling is around the arm, also try central pull on arm and also pulling from the outside of the arm.

As Ken said your hold could be a lot better but its doesn't sound like you have been shooting long so this is something that will improve maybe on it own over time. But it would be worth trying different foresight elements to see if that helps your hold.

Difficult to see why the shot is so far away from the centre of aim without seeing the scatt file. But look at NPA, relaxation, and also shot release.

I would say your F coefficient is a little low at 40 I am using 70 for prone. I have seen quite a few Scatt files from international shooters and they are around 65-70 for the F value. I have a Scatt MX-02 and when live firing F value at 70 is about right and seems to be quite accurate to where the shots actually hit. I am afraid 40 will make your shots look better than they are. Also better to be too high than too low with F.

Gents,

As I am on the verge of acquiring a SCATT USB trainer, I would like to know if there is a website or forum where this sort of discussion takes place.

The machine will gather the data but I need the education in interpreting the information it is telling me. That is the only way that I feel I will be able to make forward progress.

Will reading the users manual be sufficient?

Bob

Hi David
I have attached snips from one of my Scatt files. This shows the effect of poor shot release.

Bottom image - Good hold and is mainly centre, but the act of my shot release has disturbed the hold over to the left. Pre-hold (yellow trace) and follow-through (red trace) are grouped together over my initial hold (green trace) meaning it was only a small disturbance.

Top image - Bigger hold (due to my pulse and holding too long) and NPA slightly low, but my poor shot release has again disturbed the rifle, placing the shot low. Given that the yellow and red trace are also low means my hold was probably sinking too.

I agree with Ken, a small hold is due to good relaxation, absolutely no muscles or steering allowed. Most important, TRY TO KEEP THE RIFLE STILL.
Get relaxed then adjust your NPA to centre of target, check relaxation again, adjust NPA, check relaxation etc. This happens after nearly every breath, the cycle goes on until the rifle sits there on the target and still. Then it is time for your perfectly still shot release, keeping the rifle centered perfectly on the target. Concentrate on keeping still for several seconds after the shot.
Rifle shooting is all about KEEPING THE RIFLE STILL, leave the moving stuff to the shotgunners.

In time you acquire the art of relaxing, checking and then correcting your NPA after every breath. It becomes automatic and very quick. Some days the rifle just wants go straight to the centre of the target and just won't budge, those days are great.
Cheers
Martin

Guys, great advice - thank you very much - just one question - what is the "L" value?

My F value is 40 and I seem to produce the same results in live fire as I do in SCATT training BUT in live fire I tend to 'seek' a new NPA for each target face. I hadn't actually thought to do it per shot. Trigger hold is going to be interesting as I also shoot fullbore with a 1kg+ trigger but it will be a good exercise.

My sling is attached as high up the arm as I can manage it on the jacket (above the bicep).

Cheers

David

I cannot resist saying something Martin, great shooting we can see how you get the results you do from this. You have had a brilliant year and that trace shows the work you have put in.

L value is the Length.

With many years of every day use with the scatt system I can say that its the best shooting tool for the coach and the shooter.
L is the length,meaning the velocity of movement. You can see how your velocity of movement acts in the last second(or any time you choose)in the speed graph.
Its important to have the speed graph getting lower towards the shot release.
A good shooter will mostly shoot at the lowest velocity of movement. You can train it by listening to your hurt beat.
A good L value in prone is 40 and lower...
The percentage (10.0 and 10ao) should be 100% both for a good prone shooter.(using coefficient of 40).
personally,I don't think a higher sling on the arm is better than a lower. I think its individual, and every shooter should try differt sling placement in order to avoid pulse.
Guy.

The L value is something that you can get displayed for each shot if you select it in the options menu (I think). I usually have "Time", 10.0, 10.5, 10a0, 10a5, and "L" selected.

Martin's second trace is a pretty good example - entry onto the target from 6 - 7 o'clock, settle, release, follow through. OK it went a bit right but it's still a 10.5 at worst. That's the sort of shot process that is worth trying.
The first trace is typical of what happens when you aim for too long - your eyes get the image "burnt in" and you can drift out of the bull without seeing it.

There is a very good article on the SCATT website about shooting between heartbeats with an example file from Marina Bobkova - her pulse is quite noticeable but she is VERY still in between beats and that's when she takes the shot. It's definitely worth a look.
Interestingly(?) that file comes up with an F coefficient of 25 but if you up it to 40 or 70 the groups don't open up that much.

Ken.

P.S. I followed Guy's advice three years ago and trained to shoot between beats and the standard of my shooting has definitely gone up significantly.

This has been a fascinating subject, even for someone like me that does not possess a Scatt. The big problem, however - apart from the lack of a Scatt -is that I cannot detect the interval between my heart beats. Can anyone suggest how I might do this, please?

Cumbrian wrote:This has been a fascinating subject, even for someone like me that does not possess a Scatt. The big problem, however - apart from the lack of a Scatt -is that I cannot detect the interval between my heart beats. Can anyone suggest how I might do this, please?

Telescopic sights can help, as you can see the effect of your pulse beat. My pulse will flick the cross har slight up from centre.

As I said,you should "listen" to your hurt beats. Its mostly feeling,and with some training,it can be learned.For some shooters it's natural,and for others,it should be learned and trained.
You can shoot on white target in order to avoid shooting for the center,and only concentrate on your hurt beats.
When anyone wants to train a new technich,it's always better to separate it from the whole process. only when the new technich is learned,it should be added to the whole process.
Guy.

Guy

What do you do in a high pressure competition or final for example when the heart beat is high? Is it still possible to shoot between beats if your heart is 120beats? Or is the focus then on reducing the heart beat to something manageable?

I have heard coaches give this as a reason for shooters to not shoot between heart beats. Because of the high pressure moments when it really counts and the heart rate is too fast to shoot between beats.

I think that learning to shoot when the pulce is in the "quiet" period is even more important when your pulse is high.
In finals or when your anxiety is high the pulse is not so high like in an aerobic activity where the pulse is high and shallow.Anxiety makes the amplitude of pulse to be bigger but not so fast,so the pulse is noticeable and the amplitude is large. There is enough time to pull the trigger on the right time. That's the reason why its almost impossible to train competition stress on training.The pulse shape is really different than only high pulse rate which you can achieve from aerobic activity.
I think that by controlling your mind,your thoughts,by concentrating on present time,on your shooting routine, you have a better chance to perform on finals or any important event.
Guy.

L = Trace Length? Mine average around 85 - I guess I have some way to go :)