AP training schedule ?

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:40 pm

I used to train at my home garage and hence afford to do that every day. But now that the garage is under repair and renovation I won't be able to do that anymore.

I can use the local gun range, which is around 3 hwy exits away, but that will cost me $15 per visit. Obviously I will try to maximize the time I can spend there. Nevertheless $15 per day adds up.

My question is what sort of training schedule you would suggest if I can only use the gun range (with cost of $15 per day)? I cannot afford to do it every day. Also, my training used to be 30 minutes a day, now suddenly it will make no sense to pay $15 fpr 30 mins.

If you cannot do it every day, what would you suggest me to do?

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:04 pm

Why train 30 minutes for a 2 hour match? When you go to the range, shoot a full match and more (maybe two matches). When you're at home...dry fire...a lot!

Don't forget those new glasses, either.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:14 pm

Rover wrote:Why train 30 minutes for a 2 hour match? When you go to the range, shoot a full match and more (maybe two matches). When you're at home...dry fire...a lot!

Without actual shooting, how do I know when I do all these dry fire I am aiming correctly?

When I have the garage I can do 30 minutes per day. Mixing dry fire with real.

Should I think about SCATT? While I cannot shoot a real pellet, I can set up my hallway at home purely for dry fire?

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:23 pm

conradin wrote:
Rover wrote:Why train 30 minutes for a 2 hour match? When you go to the range, shoot a full match and more (maybe two matches). When you're at home...dry fire...a lot!
Without actual shooting, how do I know when I do all these dry fire I am aiming correctly?

When I have the garage I can do 30 minutes per day. Mixing dry fire with real.

Should I think about SCATT? While I cannot shoot a real pellet, I can set up my hallway at home purely for dry fire (7m)?

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:53 pm

My God, Vince...sometimes your're thicker than shit.

Dry fire has nothing to do with where you're aiming. Shoot at a blank wall. Learn to get a shot off with a perfect release (no twitching).

When you have the garage, you have all the time in the world, not 30 minutes. Forget SCATT...spend the money on glasses!!!!

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:51 pm

Rover wrote:
Dry fire has nothing to do with where you're aiming. Shoot at a blank wall. Learn to get a shot off with a perfect release (no twitching).

OK, wise words, but with no one to see it, it is hard to detect twitching. I only know how to detect it from the target after firing.

My training consisted of lifting weights, dry fire, and 30minutes of real shooting per day. Now that the 30 minutes of real shooting per day option is gone, with no shooting range near me that offers a proper 10M set up, I have to resort to, as you and others suggest, heavily into dry fire. Also, now the dry fire will no longer be able to do with a 10M distance...so that means it is as useful as facing the wall dry fire. In reality my training session prior is way more than 30 minutes, sometimes as much as 90 minutes. The 30 minutes is the end of the training session when I actually shot somewhere between 15-20 shots. After that it would be an analyzing session, and put it these ideas into the shooting journal, etc.

I have limited amount of time in the garage since the garage is shared. I sometimes stay as much as 2 hours, which include set up and take down. Due to the sharing nature I can only do my session at night after dinner. But this is no longer an issue since I won't have the garage anymore.

David M · Post by **David M** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:06 am

Dryfire does not need 10m or someone watching. It does not even need a wall.
Dryfire needs a pistol with a foresight you can watch.
Looking at the foresight as you fire will tell you if you twitch.......

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:15 am

conradin wrote:
Rover wrote:
Dry fire has nothing to do with where you're aiming. Shoot at a blank wall. Learn to get a shot off with a perfect release (no twitching).
OK, wise words, but with no one to see it, it is hard to detect twitching.

What on earth do you mean "no one to see it"?

YOU will see it, providing that you're looking at your sights properly.

When you're live firing, do you call every shot. How accurate is your shot calling.

SamEEE · Post by **SamEEE** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:56 am

I used a SCATT machine for awhile - it was only useful for about half an hour to troubleshoot a bad habit or two in lieu of a coach and body understanding on my part.

Turns out I had a bit of a habit of collapsing my shoulder inwards after the shot ("ah, thank god thats over" type of deal) but sometimes I would do it before the shot broke - remediation required: follow through and let the shot break.

The SCATT is a pretty good machine if you can borrow one for half days at a time from friends, but otherwise I think what I would do is find a high speed camera. 120 fps should be plenty - action cams are capable of this, as is the new iPhone and iPad if you cant see what your front sight is doing with your naked eye.

The matter of dryfiring against a blank wall is to perfect the shot without the target, or most importantly the distraction of aiming.

Here is a really great article written by Warren Potter regarding dry fire shooting:
http://www.pilkguns.com/c3.shtml

In supplement to this: The follow through - Warren Potter
http://www.pilkguns.com/c7.shtml

And last but not least: Sight watching - Warren Potter
http://www.pilkguns.com/c4.shtml

To further supplement your reading on dryfiring:
http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Tom_R ... Advice.pdf

Also to further expand on what Rover is saying; get your bloody eyes fixed: bullshit in -> bullshit out.

Edit: I hope this helps as a starting point. Quite a lot has been written on the subject. I am certainly no expert (2.2 years shooting pistol) but I try to read widely, stand on the shoulders of giants, and whatnot.

SMC · Post by **SMC** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:08 am

Vince, all previous comments are valid. To help you understand, a very close friend has no home AP range. He just dryfires with his AP & FP (a LOT). He shoots 550 - 560 AP scores.

Say it with me - DRY FIRING WORKS! You must pay attention to sight alignment, trigger release and follow through. Perfect practice makes perfect. Practice just makes permanent.

BTW, Roger is correct, don't train 30 minutes for a 90 minute match.

Steve (trying hard to follow my own advice)

seamaster · Post by **seamaster** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:48 am

Vince, there are ONLY so many particles on dry firing. I am sure you have them all on files.

There is not much new under the sun. Just revisit those particles from time to time.

Only thing I would add to dry firing is be your own critic. How good is your front sight watching, trigger, follow through on a 5 point scale. Not all dry firing are 5/5 scale. You will start to notice many 4's or perhaps 3's on your own 5 point scale. Just dry fire until you are satisfied with 5/5 on your sight watching, smooth triggering, and follow through.

Be your own worst critic. Just be critical about your dry firing. Write down your own 5 point scale evaluation on each dry firing.

Gwhite · Post by **Gwhite** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:35 am

If you can't see your errors when dry firing, you either aren't focusing on your front sight, or you need better glasses.

In either event, you can't ever shoot well if you can't see your front sight clearly enough to detect triggering errors when you dry fire.

An electronic trainer (ET) can help, but it's a significant investment (although cheaper than buying another pistol...). I have a Noptel, and it has several advantages over plain dry firing:

1) It's more fun, therefore, I dry fire more.

2) It can show errors that may be too small to see clearly, even if you are focusing on your front sight. I find that I take a more precise mental image of my sight alignment & sight picture when I fire a real shot than I do with a quiet "click", so calling my shots is less precise with dry firing than live firing.

3) It will keep you honest about what you are doing. It's very easy to convince yourself that you are doing OK when dry firing. The ET may think different...

4) It can help you with your timing. It will clearly show if your hold is deteriorating before you get your shots off. Most people hold too long, waiting for things to get better. At some point, they will deteriorate, and you need to abort. As I get older, the time window before my arm or my eyes start to fade is getting shorter & shorter...

5) It can tell you a lot about your hold. I can see differences between days when I'm tired, and how my hold evolves while I shoot.

6) It can help you with your mental game. I now know for sure that my shot process is solid, and will deliver 9's & 10's (if I execute it well). I know that my arm is not going to degrade enough over the course of a match to be an issue. I can more quickly identify errors, and work on correcting them before my score has totally tanked.

I've been using my Noptel for free pistol, dry firing 70 shots almost every day. I'm learning a lot about what a good shot & a bad shot look & feel like, but I'm not at the point yet where I can do it right nearly as often as I would like. I now have a small shopping list of things I need to work on, so I can fine tune my training drills.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:23 pm

My eye is not that bad, the truth is I have far slightedness, so when focus on front sight I am totally fine. I also make sure my pistol has as long a sight radius as possible. I can see the front sight clearly. Getting classes will solve the far sightedness problem, but as far as shooting goes, it really matters little.

My left eye has some anti-stigmatism, but since I shoot match xbow using left eye, I install a Gehmann diopter that has a adjustment for anti-stigmatism, so I don't have much problem.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:08 am

conradin wrote:My eye is not that bad, the truth is I have far slightedness, so when focus on front sight I am totally fine. I also make sure my pistol has as long a sight radius as possible. I can see the front sight clearly.

If you can see, and watch, the sights properly then why can't you see any twitches yourself?

When you're live firing, do you call every shot. How accurate is your shot calling.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:09 am

C'mon guys, you're watching a man in denial.

SMC · Post by **SMC** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:30 pm

Vince, you requested guidance from experienced and successful competitors yet you make excuses instead of accepting the good advice. I am getting the strong impression that you are waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear.

The success that we experience in our sport may start with some natural ability but it builds on developing the mental and physical qualities to adapt and succeed.

What you are dealing with is the inability to adapt to a new challenge. Your training mechanism has been interrupted due to circumstances beyond your control. You have asked for help and have received excellent advice. In my opinion, you have tried to challenge the trivial aspects without accepting the significant contributions.

How you adapt will decide whether you are a victim or a successful competitor.

Lanny Basham experienced the same problem as you. He adapted to the challenge (by DRY FIRING) and turned adversity into success (and several books, tapes, videos, etc).

We all have a choice to make. We can train, plan, and adapt to be as successful as we can be or we can make excuses, avoid the really hard work, and buy more toys in an attempt to buy a better score.

Don't be afraid of the guy with all the fancy new guns. Be afraid of the guy with one old gun that he has learned to shoot with discipline and precision (and he probably DRY FIRES too).

That's my inflation adjusted 2 cents. We are all free to follow our own path.

Regards,

Steve (and yes, I'm still trying to follow my own advice).

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:27 pm

This is what I use for dry fire practice in the house.
I put it on a white wall 3 meters away and can see when you have perfect alignment and trigger release...or not :)
They work for me, your mileage will vary.

seamaster · Post by **seamaster** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:39 pm

Vince, what is your normal AP score? There might be some nuances to training recommendation for difference levels. What level are you shooting now? For example you mention you want longest possible sight radius. I concede for a high level shooter who knows the nuance of high level shooting, it is advisable. But if you are not, it is counter productive.

What is your normal AP score now? Recommendation for AP training is pretty much the same for all levels, but there might be some subtle nuance for high level shooters; however, only they will acknowledge those nuances.

What is your AP score now?

dronning · Post by **dronning** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:07 pm

Dry firing can be broken down into several components and all should be practiced.

Zins a 12 time national bullseye National Champion said one of his dry fire drills was to sit on his couch with his arm resting on a pillow or his knee and just pulled and reset the trigger until he could feel every grain in the metal during the trigger release and you know he had a glass smooth roll trigger. Point is whatever training you use to get you to one level it most likely WON'T be what you need to get you to the next. For me it's still fundamentals, stamina, mental.

shaky hands · Post by **shaky hands** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:57 pm

dronning wrote:Dry firing can be broken down into several components and all should be practiced.

Zins a 12 time national bullseye National Champion said one of his dry fire drills was to sit on his couch with his arm resting on a pillow or his knee and just pulled and reset the trigger until he could feel every grain in the metal during the trigger release and you know he had a glass smooth roll trigger. Point is whatever training you use to get you to one level it most likely WON'T be what you need to get you to the next. For me it's still fundamentals, stamina, mental.

Zins may fancy whatever idea of fondling his trigger on a couch he likes, that does not make it true or even advisable to replicate. For all you know it could have been irrelevant to his success. When you listen to that kind of advice do not forget that his full-time job in the military was to shoot bullseye pistol with no limit on ammo. 2700 match in the morning and another one in the afternoon, if you please, with professional coaches looking over your shoulder might have contributed too.