Hello all,
I'm looking to explore smallbore as a hobby, and I've done months of research and playing with the idea of buying a quality smallbore rifle to get started. I considered just renting from a local club--but I can't find any local smallbore clubs where I'm at (Clarksville, TN).
I've settled on a used, Anschutz 1903. My reasoning is that it would be most of the quality without the customizable/adjustable (read: things that could go wrong) features that the higher 1907/1913 rifles offer.
I'd love to get everyone's input on what my selection should be.
I'm in the Army, so I'm not a complete novice to shooting, but my experience has primarily been on the M4 carbine... which, I take it, is a little different from a smallbore rifle. :)
New to Smallbore
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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Thedrifter
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
First Off, WELCOME to the site.
I do not suggest purchasing a 1903 Anschutz.
I say this only because once you are started, your going to be hooked. and eventually you will desire a more adjustable and more accurate rifle. might as well start with a better quality and work up to it, I'm not saying new, just better. the 1903 is too light in my opinion for a full grown adult. the round action 54 Anschutz rifles are a very good first choice. i went with an older Feinwerkbau 2602.
Coming from an Air Force guy (and this hurts to admit) you may look into seeing if the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) could offer and advice. they are top notch shooters and frankly some of the best in the world train there on a regular basis, they have decades of experience. their web-sight as a contact section where you could get better guidance getting started.
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/index.asp
USA Shooting does not list anything in Tennessee for rifle, however Lexington, Kentucky seems to have an active club. might look into that. doesnt sound like a bad drive.
http://www.usashooting.org/7-events/interactivecalendar
http://www.usashooting.org/7-events/locateaclub
Then there is NRA events
http://findnra.nra.org/
The National Championships will be in bristol Indiana in July, that would be a long drive but the education would be outstanding for you.
Hope that helps,
Cameron
I do not suggest purchasing a 1903 Anschutz.
I say this only because once you are started, your going to be hooked. and eventually you will desire a more adjustable and more accurate rifle. might as well start with a better quality and work up to it, I'm not saying new, just better. the 1903 is too light in my opinion for a full grown adult. the round action 54 Anschutz rifles are a very good first choice. i went with an older Feinwerkbau 2602.
Coming from an Air Force guy (and this hurts to admit) you may look into seeing if the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) could offer and advice. they are top notch shooters and frankly some of the best in the world train there on a regular basis, they have decades of experience. their web-sight as a contact section where you could get better guidance getting started.
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/index.asp
USA Shooting does not list anything in Tennessee for rifle, however Lexington, Kentucky seems to have an active club. might look into that. doesnt sound like a bad drive.
http://www.usashooting.org/7-events/interactivecalendar
http://www.usashooting.org/7-events/locateaclub
Then there is NRA events
http://findnra.nra.org/
The National Championships will be in bristol Indiana in July, that would be a long drive but the education would be outstanding for you.
Hope that helps,
Cameron
Stenoshooter,
the Anschutz 1903 isn't a bad rifle (read inaccurate), but it's generally considered a junior weight option. The trigger is inferior to most first rate rifles; it's not bad, but not as good. This is why Cameron suggested you might soon outgrow it.
I think you are right to look for a less fancy rifle; fully adjustable rifles are great, and give an unparalleled fit for greater comfort and accuracy, but you need some experience to get the best out of them. Worst case scenario a beginner with no coach/instructor can adjust the rifle so it's impossible to shoot comfortably.
However there are better choices than the 1903. Smallbore barrels will shoot accurately for a long time, so most rifles from the 1970s onwards will be good (unless owned by a very serious shot, or damaged). An older Match 54 like an 1807 or 1811/1411 would be much less fancy than new offerings, but last you longer than a 1903.
the Anschutz 1903 isn't a bad rifle (read inaccurate), but it's generally considered a junior weight option. The trigger is inferior to most first rate rifles; it's not bad, but not as good. This is why Cameron suggested you might soon outgrow it.
I think you are right to look for a less fancy rifle; fully adjustable rifles are great, and give an unparalleled fit for greater comfort and accuracy, but you need some experience to get the best out of them. Worst case scenario a beginner with no coach/instructor can adjust the rifle so it's impossible to shoot comfortably.
However there are better choices than the 1903. Smallbore barrels will shoot accurately for a long time, so most rifles from the 1970s onwards will be good (unless owned by a very serious shot, or damaged). An older Match 54 like an 1807 or 1811/1411 would be much less fancy than new offerings, but last you longer than a 1903.
Last edited by Tim S on Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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StenoShooter
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 10:04 am
- Location: KY/OH
Cameron,Thedrifter wrote:First Off, WELCOME to the site.
I do not suggest purchasing a 1903 Anschutz.
I say this only because once you are started, your going to be hooked. and eventually you will desire a more adjustable and more accurate rifle. might as well start with a better quality and work up to it, I'm not saying new, just better. the 1903 is too light in my opinion for a full grown adult. the round action 54 Anschutz rifles are a very good first choice. i went with an older Feinwerkbau 2602.
Coming from an Air Force guy (and this hurts to admit) you may look into seeing if the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) could offer and advice. they are top notch shooters and frankly some of the best in the world train there on a regular basis, they have decades of experience. their web-sight as a contact section where you could get better guidance getting started.
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/index.asp
USA Shooting does not list anything in Tennessee for rifle, however Lexington, Kentucky seems to have an active club. might look into that. doesnt sound like a bad drive.
http://www.usashooting.org/7-events/interactivecalendar
http://www.usashooting.org/7-events/locateaclub
Then there is NRA events
http://findnra.nra.org/
The National Championships will be in bristol Indiana in July, that would be a long drive but the education would be outstanding for you.
Hope that helps,
Cameron
I had no idea the USAMU offered that kind of shooter-support!
I had actually heard that same thing about the 1903 (that it was more of a junior rifle), but my main motivation in looking at it was to avoid jumping into one of Anschutz's fancier guns without a sufficient level of immersion in the sport. I'm now thinking about either going with a used 1907 or perhaps one of the 18xx series.
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StenoShooter
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 10:04 am
- Location: KY/OH
Tim,Tim S wrote:Stenoshooter,
the Anschutz 1903 isn't a bad rifle (read inaccurate), but it's generally considered a junior weight option. The trigger is inferior to most first rate rifles; it's not bad, but not as good. This is why Cameron suggested you might soon outgrow it.
I think you are right to look for a less fancy rifle; fully adjustable rifles are great, and gi e an unparalleled fit for greater comfort and accuracy, but you need some experience to get the best out of them. Worst case scenario a beginner with no coach/ instructor can adjust the rifle so it's impossible to shoot comfortably.
However there are better choices than the 1903. Smallbore barrels will shoot accurately for a long time, so most rifles from the 1970s onwards will be good (unless owned by a vsry serious shot or damaged). An older Match 54 like an 1807 or 1811/1411 would be much less fancy than new offerings, but last you longer.
That's interesting about the 18xx series rifles--I had not considered any others than the 19/20xxs (what IS the difference between 18/19/20, anyway?).
I noticed that the 1903 had a 64 action, so I was aware of that deficiency, but it would be great to get an older, but still accurate, rifle with a Match 54 and better trigger system.
I would concur, for an adult, especially male I would not suggest a 1903.
Also, do not discount the 1407, this was the older version of the round Match 54 action. They are typically several hundred less than an 1807 or 1907.
The 14xx are readily identifiable by a "wing" on the back left side of the bolt. The action is a little slower than the 18xx/19xx but hardly an issue for a new shooter. The triggers on the 1407 are not as nice and adjustable as the newer triggers but they can be with a few $$$ and a little work be upgraded to the newer system.
The bolt and trigger on the 18xx and 19xx are the same. The biggest difference between the two series is the 19xx the front sight is mounted to a dovetail milled directly into the muzzle end of the barrel. On the 18xx the front sight mounts to a block screwed to the muzzle end. The 19xx offers a tiny advantage in that the front sight block can never come loose but honestly I have never seen one come loose.
The 20xx action uses the same bolt and trigger as the 18xx/19xx but the the action is a square (usually silver metallic in color) block. The action is a bit heavier than the round action and supposedly stiffer.
Get on Gunbroker and or gunsamerica and start looking. You have to be patient but low mileage 1407s and 1807s do get posted.
'Dude
Also, do not discount the 1407, this was the older version of the round Match 54 action. They are typically several hundred less than an 1807 or 1907.
The 14xx are readily identifiable by a "wing" on the back left side of the bolt. The action is a little slower than the 18xx/19xx but hardly an issue for a new shooter. The triggers on the 1407 are not as nice and adjustable as the newer triggers but they can be with a few $$$ and a little work be upgraded to the newer system.
The bolt and trigger on the 18xx and 19xx are the same. The biggest difference between the two series is the 19xx the front sight is mounted to a dovetail milled directly into the muzzle end of the barrel. On the 18xx the front sight mounts to a block screwed to the muzzle end. The 19xx offers a tiny advantage in that the front sight block can never come loose but honestly I have never seen one come loose.
The 20xx action uses the same bolt and trigger as the 18xx/19xx but the the action is a square (usually silver metallic in color) block. The action is a bit heavier than the round action and supposedly stiffer.
Get on Gunbroker and or gunsamerica and start looking. You have to be patient but low mileage 1407s and 1807s do get posted.
'Dude
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Invictus87
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:10 pm
- Location: Southern Maine
With Anschutz rifles, I don't think of all the adjustments as "things that could go wrong" even though technically, more parts equals more potential failure points. I haven't heard of them failing, and I certainly haven't had problems with any of mine. I'd recommend getting an old 1413 and shooting that for a while. It will drop into a newer stock if you want more adjustability.
Agree with what most have already said. Get one of the older models, shoot it for a while and if you like it consider upgrading the stock. I went down that route with an 1813, shot it for a couple of years before upgrading to a system gemini stock. Keeping the barrel and action saved me a fair bit, plus someone wanted my old stock so I might have even made a profit :)
Rob.
Rob.
Stenoshooter,
Rob made a very good point about the Match 54 rifles. With a few exceptions* almost all Match 54 (14/16/18/19xx) barrel/actions and stocks are interchangeable. Say you get an older less fancy rifle to start with, but after a year or two find that you want a more refined stock/fit. Rather than buy a complete new rifle you can swap the stock for a new one, or a fancier used one if the existing barrel is good. Swapping stocks is a very simple job requiring only a screwdriver or allen key.
This isn't really an option for a Match 64, as the 1903 is about as good as Match 64 stocks get, and there are no aftermarket designs.
*The main exception is where the action inlet in the stock has been reinforced with epoxy. It's quite common for the epoxy to extend for 1-2in under the barrel. A 1407/1807/1907 barrel won't fit into a stock bedded for a 1413/1813/1913 barrel and vice versa. Also stocks inlet for pre-1977 triggers may need to be enlarged to fit a modern trigger.
Rob made a very good point about the Match 54 rifles. With a few exceptions* almost all Match 54 (14/16/18/19xx) barrel/actions and stocks are interchangeable. Say you get an older less fancy rifle to start with, but after a year or two find that you want a more refined stock/fit. Rather than buy a complete new rifle you can swap the stock for a new one, or a fancier used one if the existing barrel is good. Swapping stocks is a very simple job requiring only a screwdriver or allen key.
This isn't really an option for a Match 64, as the 1903 is about as good as Match 64 stocks get, and there are no aftermarket designs.
*The main exception is where the action inlet in the stock has been reinforced with epoxy. It's quite common for the epoxy to extend for 1-2in under the barrel. A 1407/1807/1907 barrel won't fit into a stock bedded for a 1413/1813/1913 barrel and vice versa. Also stocks inlet for pre-1977 triggers may need to be enlarged to fit a modern trigger.
I like the way Anschutz shooters talk about the 5018 trigger as being the "new" one. When it was introduced 35 years ago! The basic design is a bit older too, with the 5071 trigger being pretty much mechanically identical and being 40 years old now. But I suppose that a model series that has been at the top of Olympic rifle shooting for 70 years and only had one major Trigger redesign in all of that time must have got something right.
Alan
Alan
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StenoShooter
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 10:04 am
- Location: KY/OH
All,
Would you advise me to buy this rifle:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/3097394/n ... tion-rifle
It's a 2017 Anschutz listed for ($1900) only a few hundred more than, for instance, a new 1903/1907 would be. What do you think? Is this something I should jump on or pass?
Apparently this is time sensitive, so I'd love some impulse advice.
TIA!
Would you advise me to buy this rifle:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/3097394/n ... tion-rifle
It's a 2017 Anschutz listed for ($1900) only a few hundred more than, for instance, a new 1903/1907 would be. What do you think? Is this something I should jump on or pass?
Apparently this is time sensitive, so I'd love some impulse advice.
TIA!
That rifle would be a perfectly good choice for a beginner, subject to the usual caveats about condition (especially of the barrel).
The 2007 is essentially the same as a 1907 except for a larger receiver and twice the number of bedding bolts. This one has the necessary adjustment for fit at the butt and cheekpiece for a comfortable aim; with this rifle it's done by packing wedges between the cheekpiece/butt and the stock. While this method doesn't allow really fine adjustment, the butt/cheekpeice won't work loose (if that is a worry), and the process discourages idle tinkering.
The 2007 won't fit into Match 54 stocks, but there are still plenty to choose from if you want to upgrade in the future. Also on that subject, 'Dude may have mentioned it previously, but the 2007/2013 is easier to rebarrel than the Match 54.
The only reservation I have is the extension tube; the barrel is 20in, which is shorter than normal, but there is a 7in alu tube to make up the sight base. Nothing wrong with this but the tube does need to be kept clean, so if you are not a regular barrel cleaner, it's a chore.
The 2007 is essentially the same as a 1907 except for a larger receiver and twice the number of bedding bolts. This one has the necessary adjustment for fit at the butt and cheekpiece for a comfortable aim; with this rifle it's done by packing wedges between the cheekpiece/butt and the stock. While this method doesn't allow really fine adjustment, the butt/cheekpeice won't work loose (if that is a worry), and the process discourages idle tinkering.
The 2007 won't fit into Match 54 stocks, but there are still plenty to choose from if you want to upgrade in the future. Also on that subject, 'Dude may have mentioned it previously, but the 2007/2013 is easier to rebarrel than the Match 54.
The only reservation I have is the extension tube; the barrel is 20in, which is shorter than normal, but there is a 7in alu tube to make up the sight base. Nothing wrong with this but the tube does need to be kept clean, so if you are not a regular barrel cleaner, it's a chore.
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StenoShooter
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 10:04 am
- Location: KY/OH
http://www.gunsamerica.com/963952146/AN ... _MATCH.htm
I found another potential rifle that perhaps better conforms with the advice I received on this thread... 2,000$, with sights included, for the Anschutz 1913 Supermatch.
My one reservation is that its from a semi-local dealer, and I've read on here that local gunshops are not to be preferred over target shooting sites and buying from other hobbyists.
I'd love some input about potential things to watch out for on the firearm when I go to inspect it, in person, this weekend. TIA!
I found another potential rifle that perhaps better conforms with the advice I received on this thread... 2,000$, with sights included, for the Anschutz 1913 Supermatch.
My one reservation is that its from a semi-local dealer, and I've read on here that local gunshops are not to be preferred over target shooting sites and buying from other hobbyists.
I'd love some input about potential things to watch out for on the firearm when I go to inspect it, in person, this weekend. TIA!
Stenoshooter,
the rifle in the link above is a 1911 Prone Rifle not a 1913 Supermatch. It's probably an honest mistake as 1911 and 1913 barrels are identical, and are all marked as 1913. However a 1913 is the top of the range model with a fancy fully adjustable stock. The 1911 is not at all bad, but less fancy and less expensive. Be careful that the seller is not pricing this as the more expensive 1913.
When you come to inspect the rifle the main things to look for a rust on the barrel/action and cracks in the stock at the grip or near the bedding bolts. A bright shimy bore with distinct rifling grooves is good, but it's difficult to assess properly by eye.
the rifle in the link above is a 1911 Prone Rifle not a 1913 Supermatch. It's probably an honest mistake as 1911 and 1913 barrels are identical, and are all marked as 1913. However a 1913 is the top of the range model with a fancy fully adjustable stock. The 1911 is not at all bad, but less fancy and less expensive. Be careful that the seller is not pricing this as the more expensive 1913.
When you come to inspect the rifle the main things to look for a rust on the barrel/action and cracks in the stock at the grip or near the bedding bolts. A bright shimy bore with distinct rifling grooves is good, but it's difficult to assess properly by eye.
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StenoShooter
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 10:04 am
- Location: KY/OH
Tim,Tim S wrote:Stenoshooter,
the rifle in the link above is a 1911 Prone Rifle not a 1913 Supermatch. It's probably an honest mistake as 1911 and 1913 barrels are identical, and are all marked as 1913. However a 1913 is the top of the range model with a fancy fully adjustable stock. The 1911 is not at all bad, but less fancy and less expensive. Be careful that the seller is not pricing this as the more expensive 1913.
When you come to inspect the rifle the main things to look for a rust on the barrel/action and cracks in the stock at the grip or near the bedding bolts. A bright shimy bore with distinct rifling grooves is good, but it's difficult to assess properly by eye.
Thank you for helping me narrowly avoid that mistake!
Glad to see the OP has avoided that rifle. I am pretty certain that any dealer discribing that rifle as a 19 anything Anschutz rifle is saling pretty close to the wind. I know that it is not possible to see the muzzle in that photograph, but the fact that it has the barrel mounted scope blocks fitted really implies that it is at the latest an 18 series rifle, as they were the last models to be drilled and tapped for them. The stock looks to be a 70's pattern and given the other factors I would suggest that it is a 1611 (sold in the US at least as a 1411) dateing from around 1976 to about 1980. Even in the US $2000 for that rifle is way over the top price wise.
Alan
Alan
Al,
that's a good point about the stock. I think you're spot on; it has the older rounded triggerguard. The barrel is prpbably contemporary, but we can't say for sure. The 'scope blpcks on the barrel look too tall to be factory, so I would not rely on them as a terminus ante quem to date the barrel.
that's a good point about the stock. I think you're spot on; it has the older rounded triggerguard. The barrel is prpbably contemporary, but we can't say for sure. The 'scope blpcks on the barrel look too tall to be factory, so I would not rely on them as a terminus ante quem to date the barrel.