offset grips for Cross Dominance

[Heddok]

I'm a life long cross dominant shooter. Left eye dominant and right handed shooter. I'm considering getting Rink 7 degree offset grips for my Pardini SP.

Currently I'm using a 90 degree stance with a blinder on my right eye and fairly happy with my progress. But I do have to angle my wrist very slightly to get good alignment with my left eye. As I get tired or longer into a session it becomes more difficult and my shots drift off laterally.

I'm really looking for feedback and comments from shooters who have tried the offset grips and their experiences good and bad.

Many thanks
Brad

[Trooperjake]

How come you don't put the blinder on your left eye, and shoot right eye, right hand. I know many rifle shooters do this, with success.

[Heddok]

I did shoot palma rifle for many years with my right eye. Since taking up pistol, age and vision have taken a toll and my left eye just flat out works better. I may revisit the idea but since switching to left eye my scores are clearly and consistently better.

[USMC0802]

I know a local shooter who has an offset Rink on her SP. Not sure if it is the stadard offset or if she ordered something else. Sure the standard offset gets you in the ballpark. I'm not crossdominant and have a few degrees built into my grip with putty because it feels more natural and brings the sight up centered in RF. I have learned heard of a lot of people shooting this way (at least more than I had ever imagined). Even though the grip will not fit you correctly, simply rotate the gun in your hand the appropriate amount and shoot some rounds and see what you think. It does the exact same thing and I have seen experience coaches do this for cross dominant shooters at clinics using club guns. When I get a new grip or gun, I basically have to rotate the gun in my hand quite a bit to get the sights centered (because it feels more natural and uses less muscles than trying to bend my wrist back) and then fill the gap left between the back of the grip and my palm by my thumb which is fairly big. Thomas Rink fit the grip like this for me. If I could do without the grip for any amount of time, I could send it to him and he could make me an exact duplicate for the new gun I have. The nice think about a Steyr air pistol is you can rotate the grip around that axis and solve all of those problems. Don't know of any sport pistols that can adjust grips like that. I'm sure you would be very happy with the Rink grip with the offset but like any grip, you will still need to fit it to your hand and maybe add or subtract a little rotation. You can at least see what it is like rotating the grip in your hand and shooting.

[thirdwheel]

My wife uses an offset rink grip on her lp2 and thinks it is fine but we are all bolted together differently.

George

[paw080]

Hi Brad, I've got offset grips on three pistols; one from Rink and two from

Marschal. All three grips work great for me. I also have a Morini 22CM RF

that has a rotatable adjustment for the grip that I used; and it works beautifully.

The suggestion of simply rotating the pistol in your hand is what I do for

for pistols with straight aligned grips. This is what I do when shooting my

1911 and High Standard Trophy in conventional pistol events. With my

Morini 84E and Pardini PGP 75, I rasped, filed, sanded, and puttied the grip

until I got some semblance of enough rotation to help my stance alignment.

Like you, I assume various body angles to the target until one feels best.

I've found that that angle can vary toward match ending and really does

vary from day to day....but not by much. Own that pistol, stance and alignment!

Best of luck; and yes, I too am lifelong cross-dominant, DO NOT change to your

non-dominant eye, that is usually suggested by people who are not cross-dominant

and therefor haven't got a clue.

Tony

[David Levene]

Whatever you decide to do, make sure that you put the new gun/grip combination through an Equipment Control box before you go to a match.

I've seen both standard and offset Rink grips that won't go through the box.

It's not a problem that's limited to Rink; ""factory fresh" grips from most grip or gun manufacturers can also sometimes fail.

Unless you go through a voluntary EC, the first you'll know of a problem in an ISSF match is when you are DSQd in a post-match EC.

[thirdwheel]

How wise is Davids advice about EC before a match. My wife has the ofset grips and is left handed and before the ESSU championsips at Bisley last weekend she presented her pistol to EC and it failed to let the lid box shut! Simple adjustment of the back frame screw solved it as she had been playing with them, one turn of an allen screw and it was sorted. Sorry forgot about it before giving the thumbs up to the ofset grips in the post above. will relook at the set up as it was pointed out to us later that the cocking lever may also have something to do with it on a l/h grip.

George

[Heddok]

I'd really like to thank everyone who has responded so far. It's been a real education for me.

Rotating the Pardini in my hand to favor my left eye really feels good and works well with my stance. The problem is that it's not quickly or consistently repeatable when I pick up and re grip the gun. The next step is to start with grip putty and see where that gets me.

I've decided over many years of shooting that my left eye is dominant for a reason so why argue with nature. The actual CNS wiring probably favors that side and fitting the gun, grip, stance and wrist to that eye just makes more sense then the other way around. However I'm not adverse to experimenting and may revisit using my right eye in the future.

Thanks once again.

Brad

[crankythunder]

When I got my pardini, I got the 7 deg offset grips size large from pardini. I was fitted by vlad at pardini usa at camp perry and they fit me perfectly even though I am a right eye dominant/right hand shooter. The 7 deg offset was selected due to my stance which is very "square" to the target.

Unfortunately, after a couple months of use, the high rake angle of the rink grips did not work for me, and as such, I switched to dick Horton 1911 rake, zero offset grips.

While I had issues with the high rake angle of the rink grips, the 7 deg offset, or lack thereof, had no impact on my scores or comfort.

In my case, my body accommodated the offset angle with no impacts.

Cranky

[boatschool02]

I have five Rink offset grips (4 AP & 1 FP). I shoot offset due to a right eye injury in high school.
Strangely enough, none of them fit the same. I recommend trying the model specific to your pistol.
Worth noting that Rink does offer a 5 degree more steep option for Pardini pistols.
FWIW, I tried shooting each of my pistols (right hand/left eye) before receiving the offset grips. Even with Steyr/Anschutz yaw adjustment I can't imagine trying to shoot seriously while continuously fighting such heavy leftward grip/pistol NPA. With FP is goes beyond inconvenience to discomfort.
Neither offset option is perfect, nor should that be expected. However, the 7 degree calculation does seem pretty close for me.
BT
I'd be interested to hear what an experienced coach thinks about the unintended consequences of the grip offset. I assume the entire grip mold is rotated counter clockwise seven degrees around the axis to move the muzzle clockwise vice just adding filler to the lower rear portion of the grip. I find cant, trigger finger placement, sight alignment oscillation and perfect rearward trigger release slightly more complex as the basic alignment relationships (sights, trigger, mid finger joints, and wrist) are no longer parallel.
I'm sure i will learn to shoot pure left handed in time, but for now I shoot about 15 points lower per 100 with my non-dominant hand and continue to consider the Rink offset grips an excellent option.

[USMC0802]

Whether you get a 5 or 7 degree, you will still need to use a filler to properly fit the gun to you. Glad that rotating the grip in your hand let you know what it would be like. Until you are ready to commit to a permanent grip modification or to practice getting it correct, go to a hobby store and buy some clay. Use the clay to fill in the gaps with it rotated. Keep adding a little at a time and you will find exactly what you like. If you buy the epoxy putty from Rink, working with it is exactly like working with clay. Even though my grips were fit and filled by Rink when we were at a match in Germany a couple of years ago, a coach made some further changes to my grip with regular clay a few months ago at the OTC. Since it worked so good during that cinic time, I didn't want to mess with it and shot a personal best at my next match. Ended up making significant changes to both pistols with modeling clay before my next international match waiting to have Rink refit me. Unfortunately he missed the last match but I have gotten enough experience fitting with clay that I know I can use the permanent stuff and get it exactly correct and pretty much know what I am doing. The clay will obviously compress and move and change on you overtime so it is not a long term option and I probably shouldn't have gone to Germany with my grips half prepared like that but it did work out for me. Also learned that the clay hanging over the edge a couple mm kept the box from closing so I just told them to force it shut and it would cut that excess hanging over the side off perfectly. With a square grip fitting that tightly in the box, I can see how there could be some issues with an offset grip not fitting. Surprised that Rink or anyone else would make a standard offset grip that would have any trouble passing EC. My offset was only to get the front sight moved over about an 1/8th or 1/4 inch so it would come up straight in RF sport. After getting a grip fit correctly with putty or whatever, you could send it to Rink and he can make an exact duplicate. If you ever change models or need one for FP or air, he has your mold saved and can make you a duplicate for your new gun. Since all guns feel different and attach different and are probably held a little differnt, I would still think a custom grip for a new model would still need to be refit but it would probably be minimal.

[USMC0802]

PAWO8O

Where how and who made a Morini RF grip that could be rotated? Wonder why the manufactures wouldn't do that with all there grips if it was possible. Don't think it would cost them any more money at all. Just a very little initial design time with the grip I would think. Guess it depends on how each model attaches at to how much work it would be. Even though I'm not a fan of the LP10 (I guess because I was just used to how the Morini felt as my only reference at that time), I love the fact that the LP10 has that rotational feature. Almost switched to it because of that feature. Even though I didn't like it compared to my Morini, after a week or so I would of probably gotten used to it and not noticed the difference.

Anyway, who made the grip that rotates? A medium Pardini K12 grip fits my hand almost perfect (until I put it on the gun). Once installed, due to my wrist angle, it is no longer the perfect option. The Large grip with lots of filler became the best option. If only I could of rotated the medium a couple degrees, it would of been just about perfect as is.

[paw080]

PAWO8O

Where how and who made a Morini RF grip that could be rotated? Wonder why the manufactures wouldn't do that with all there grips if it was possible. Don't think it would cost them any more money at all. Just a very little initial design time with the grip I would think. Guess it depends on how each model attaches at to how much work it would be. Even though I'm not a fan of the LP10 (I guess because I was just used to how the Morini felt as my only reference at that time), I love the fact that the LP10 has that rotational feature. Almost switched to it because of that feature. Even though I didn't like it compared to my Morini, after a week or so I would of probably gotten used to it and not noticed the difference.

Anyway, who made the grip that rotates? A medium Pardini K12 grip fits my hand almost perfect (until I put it on the gun). Once installed, due to my wrist angle, it is no longer the perfect option. The Large grip with lots of filler became the best option. If only I could of rotated the medium a couple degrees, it would of been just about perfect as is.

Hi USMC, The grip itself doesn't have a rotatable adjustment; It's the pistol itself

that has adjustments to rotate, cant and swing the grip to the frame. In other

words, Morini made the grip. I'm also talking about a sport and Rapid Fire

22lr pistol, not an air pistol. My Steyr LP1-C has very similar grip adjustments.

Tony

[USMC0802]

paw080

Are you saying the factory grip on my morini cm22RF sport pistol will rotate on the frame left and right?

[trinity]

I am cross dominant, left eye, right hand. I started shooting cross dominant in air pistol and then transitioned to 22 sport pistol. I had decent success, but after about 3 years, I realized especially in sport pistol, being cross dominant made the position difficult to be consistent in.

I tried shooting left hand and left eye, but found that I tired quickly, and my left hand/arm apparently didn't learn anything about shooting despite training for 3 years with the right.

As a last resort, I tried shooting with my right eye. I was quite surprised to find that within a few hours of training, I found it quite natural to aim with my right eye. I've been using my right eye ever since.

So in my experience, I found it rather easy to switch to my non dominant eye, which although weaker, allowed me to have a better overall position and posture.

Of course, as with anything, there is nothing to stop you from attaining high levels of performance continuing to shoot cross dominant aside from time and dedicated training. I know Libby (http://www.issf-sports.org/athletes/ath ... 2502195201) shoots cross dominant, and recently was reminded that Antoaneta Boneva (http://www.issf-sports.org/athletes/ath ... 1701198601) also shoots cross dominant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htb1jJY ... QrU3#t=458). She just happened to win AP40 at the last USA World Cup.

I would suggest giving your right eye a try, see if you can see the sights clear enough. Of course corrective lenses and a blinder on the left eye would help you achieve this.

-trinity

[jackh]

I am not sure I could ever do left eye right hand. I have been right right for decades. But I do believe my left eye sees a little better than the right. Even gripping right handed, my LP10 sights to the left for my natural wrist position. I already have the frame screws adjusted.

They say adjust the grip in the hand a little. But doesn't that disturb the trigger finger placement too much?

[dam8]

I am right hand left eye dominant. several years ago I took the plunge and bought a set of nill griffe 7* offsets for my sp. I feel my npa is achieved more unconsciously now. And I do shoot it better than with the stock pardini grips My lp1, which I have rotated as best I could, does take a slight physical adjustment. They both feel comfortable, but I'm not sure if I shoot one better than the other.