Greetings all,
can you recommend a good fixed 4x scope that will focus down to 10m?
Kindest regards,
N
Scope question
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
It is quite difficult to find anyone who hold low power fixed mag scopes in stock. Given the popularity of the 3-9×40 it has pretty much become the standard basic scope where ever you go. Most of the major manufacturers still make a 4×40 scope, but you will probably have to order one in. Unfortunately it is likely to cost more than the equivalent 3-9×40. Hawke offer both a 4×40 and a 4×32 which also comes in an AO version. I know the fixed objective version will very easily re-focus down to 10m, I used these scopes when I ran a shooting gallery at a local holiday center. Nikko Sterling seem to offer the same type of scope in the same varieties. Unfortunately neither manufacturer offers a fixed power in a higher model line.
I also had a quick look at S&B in the top end, but they only have 6× and 8× fixed mag scopes now. I was able to find this with a quick Google search. Although I suppose I did know that I wanted to look for those companies. Bushnell also have a fixed 4× Banner.
Alan
I also had a quick look at S&B in the top end, but they only have 6× and 8× fixed mag scopes now. I was able to find this with a quick Google search. Although I suppose I did know that I wanted to look for those companies. Bushnell also have a fixed 4× Banner.
Alan
Well knowing what the budget is would help. The problem seems to be that most of the fixed 4×32 or 40 scopes available new are the very bottom end cheap Chinese stuff. I know that both Hawke and Nikko Sterling do have westen staff in the factories keeping an eye on QC so that quality doesn't slip too low. If I were to buy new it would be a Hawke Sport HD 4×32AO with the duplex ret. I would pick Hawke simply because I know some of the companies wholesale sales staff quite well and they have helped me out with stuff that I needed in the past. I guess the advantage is that you are looking at around £50 for the scope. You may have to wait a little for your local dealer to put an order into Hawke otherwise you will be paying an additional delivery charge of over £20 if you are in the UK (I only know pricing here in the UK as I do some work for a local firearms dealer who specialises in sporting air rifles).
For building a nice 10m RT outfit though I think I would try to find a nice older scope second hand. Older quality optics in this case are likely to be much superior to the new stuff. 4×40 was the popular entry level specification for many years, so there should be a goodly range to pick from, if you can find someone willing to part with one for reasonable money. Here you should have a good choice, Redfield, Burris, Leupold from the USA or go with something built in Japan. Depending on budget you might even be able to go European in an older scope. Since you are only going to be shooting at 10m you don't even need to worry about using an old scope with only 1/2 MoA adjusters, at 10m even that will be plenty fine enough. I would actually probably try to avoid anything with 1/8 MoA adjusters if you were to happen to find one (although that is unlikely).
HTH
Alan
For building a nice 10m RT outfit though I think I would try to find a nice older scope second hand. Older quality optics in this case are likely to be much superior to the new stuff. 4×40 was the popular entry level specification for many years, so there should be a goodly range to pick from, if you can find someone willing to part with one for reasonable money. Here you should have a good choice, Redfield, Burris, Leupold from the USA or go with something built in Japan. Depending on budget you might even be able to go European in an older scope. Since you are only going to be shooting at 10m you don't even need to worry about using an old scope with only 1/2 MoA adjusters, at 10m even that will be plenty fine enough. I would actually probably try to avoid anything with 1/8 MoA adjusters if you were to happen to find one (although that is unlikely).
HTH
Alan
Tell you what, Nemo...
Look up these guys:
http://targetshooteroptics.com/Home_Page.php
...and see if the Weaver K4 or similar can be manually adjusted to 10 meters.
It will of course be a single-purpose rifle then, but it sounds like that's what you intend anyhow.
-Nate
ETA: I completely forgot about the Leupold M8 scopes. They are the predecessor to the current "FX" line, and are a Gold-Ring scope (ie: full lifetime transferable warranty). If they could be turned down to 10m focus, you're in serious business. That, or even buy one of the new Leupold FX-II 4x33mm and turn it down.
E.g.: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leupold-M8-4X-H ... 58ae0d65cc
Do an eBay search for "Leupold M8"...
Look up these guys:
http://targetshooteroptics.com/Home_Page.php
...and see if the Weaver K4 or similar can be manually adjusted to 10 meters.
It will of course be a single-purpose rifle then, but it sounds like that's what you intend anyhow.
-Nate
ETA: I completely forgot about the Leupold M8 scopes. They are the predecessor to the current "FX" line, and are a Gold-Ring scope (ie: full lifetime transferable warranty). If they could be turned down to 10m focus, you're in serious business. That, or even buy one of the new Leupold FX-II 4x33mm and turn it down.
E.g.: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leupold-M8-4X-H ... 58ae0d65cc
Do an eBay search for "Leupold M8"...
Hi Nate,
thank you for the link to the targetshooter optics, I will use it if everything else fails, i.e., I cannot find an older off-the shelf model.
Interesting that you mentioned the M8 and/or the FII. I have M8 in 24x and love it. The problem is that, as much as I have been searching, I could not find any information the close focus on the M8, the FII is said to be "parallax free" at 100y. Any idea where I could find this information for the M8?
I have done some reading and thre is some suggestion that the parallax error is not an issue below about 8x. But, I do not know how to verify this information.
Hi Alan,
at least Leupold has a program where you can call with a serial number and they tell you if it is in their database.
Kindest regards,
N
thank you for the link to the targetshooter optics, I will use it if everything else fails, i.e., I cannot find an older off-the shelf model.
Interesting that you mentioned the M8 and/or the FII. I have M8 in 24x and love it. The problem is that, as much as I have been searching, I could not find any information the close focus on the M8, the FII is said to be "parallax free" at 100y. Any idea where I could find this information for the M8?
I have done some reading and thre is some suggestion that the parallax error is not an issue below about 8x. But, I do not know how to verify this information.
Hi Alan,
at least Leupold has a program where you can call with a serial number and they tell you if it is in their database.
Kindest regards,
N
Almost all scopes are set up to be parallaxed at 100 yards/meters from the factory. Hawke, who are UK based but have all the scopes made in China, have a lot of their scopes set up to 30 yards/meters because the vast majority of the scopes that they sell are really designed for air gun use, and in the UK at least that means a maximum useful range of around that distance. Well at least without a lot of paperwork for the licence that would be required at higher power.
Almost all scopes though (well unless they are of a very odd design) are capable of having the parallax distance altered. The ease with which that may be done though will vary. You have to be able to remove the front locking/finishing ring from the front of the scope objective bell (this is usually the hard part) in order to get to the front optic cell (this is normally a single lens element in a threaded carrier). Once you have the cell visible you simply have to unscrew the cell until you achieve your desired focus. The cell may be very stiff as usually it is covered in a thick grease that helps make the whole system gas tight. Remembering that the scope (if a good quality one) will be filled with dry Nitrogen gas to prevent fogging it is important not to unscrew the cell all of the way out of the body. When checking for correct focus it is important to keep having a quick look through the scope. If you look for a relatively long period then your eye will become accustomed to the miss focus and adapt.
As one is dealing with a VERY close target compared to the normal setting, only one tenth the optimum distance you will have two problems to contend with. The first is the parallax error itself. OK if you have perfect head/eye alignment EVERY shot then this not a huge issue, otherwise it can get to be enough to see you out in the 5 ring or worse. The second problem is actually being able to see the target. OK at 4× magnification the perceived depth of field is quite deep. For a scope set at 100 yds/m you should be able to still see a target at 30 yds/m reasonably well, you need to go to around 6× before you start to see that sort of difference in distance. Coming down to 10 m though is a different proposition. It is possible to see the image at that distance, especially with a scope with a fast focus ocular bell, but it becomes a case of you can see the target OR the reticule, but NEVER BOTH at the same time.
I believe that if you are in the US then Leupold will service and re-parallax your scope for a modest fee. Given the problems of shipping scopes internationally these days thanks to UN "arms controls" it's not really a service I can make use of.
By the way there is no difference in the amount of movement incorrect parallax will have on the relative movement of the reticule on the target. Although at 4× you do have the issue that "seeing" it is harder, and locating the center of the reticule on the center of the target is also of course much harder. The relative size of the reticle (at least with Second Focal Plane scopes) is also much larger with lower magnifications. What makes the big difference is the distance, and going from 100 to 10 is a 90% change in distance.
I guess I should now start looking for an old Air Arms S200T to build an RT rifle out of. At the Air Rifle club that I shoot at we have a 10m RT target system that never gets used. I have only ever tried RT once, and that was around 35 years ago and was still called Running Boar even when shot at 10m.
Alan
Almost all scopes though (well unless they are of a very odd design) are capable of having the parallax distance altered. The ease with which that may be done though will vary. You have to be able to remove the front locking/finishing ring from the front of the scope objective bell (this is usually the hard part) in order to get to the front optic cell (this is normally a single lens element in a threaded carrier). Once you have the cell visible you simply have to unscrew the cell until you achieve your desired focus. The cell may be very stiff as usually it is covered in a thick grease that helps make the whole system gas tight. Remembering that the scope (if a good quality one) will be filled with dry Nitrogen gas to prevent fogging it is important not to unscrew the cell all of the way out of the body. When checking for correct focus it is important to keep having a quick look through the scope. If you look for a relatively long period then your eye will become accustomed to the miss focus and adapt.
As one is dealing with a VERY close target compared to the normal setting, only one tenth the optimum distance you will have two problems to contend with. The first is the parallax error itself. OK if you have perfect head/eye alignment EVERY shot then this not a huge issue, otherwise it can get to be enough to see you out in the 5 ring or worse. The second problem is actually being able to see the target. OK at 4× magnification the perceived depth of field is quite deep. For a scope set at 100 yds/m you should be able to still see a target at 30 yds/m reasonably well, you need to go to around 6× before you start to see that sort of difference in distance. Coming down to 10 m though is a different proposition. It is possible to see the image at that distance, especially with a scope with a fast focus ocular bell, but it becomes a case of you can see the target OR the reticule, but NEVER BOTH at the same time.
I believe that if you are in the US then Leupold will service and re-parallax your scope for a modest fee. Given the problems of shipping scopes internationally these days thanks to UN "arms controls" it's not really a service I can make use of.
By the way there is no difference in the amount of movement incorrect parallax will have on the relative movement of the reticule on the target. Although at 4× you do have the issue that "seeing" it is harder, and locating the center of the reticule on the center of the target is also of course much harder. The relative size of the reticle (at least with Second Focal Plane scopes) is also much larger with lower magnifications. What makes the big difference is the distance, and going from 100 to 10 is a 90% change in distance.
I guess I should now start looking for an old Air Arms S200T to build an RT rifle out of. At the Air Rifle club that I shoot at we have a 10m RT target system that never gets used. I have only ever tried RT once, and that was around 35 years ago and was still called Running Boar even when shot at 10m.
Alan
Hi Alan,
thank you very much for taking the time to write the educational post.
Accepting all that you said, I have found that there are some scopes with Adjustable Objective (AO) that apparently can correct the parallax as a function of a distance.
Would this not be a good approach?
Kindest regards,
N
thank you very much for taking the time to write the educational post.
Accepting all that you said, I have found that there are some scopes with Adjustable Objective (AO) that apparently can correct the parallax as a function of a distance.
Would this not be a good approach?
Kindest regards,
N
Actually in the situation where you want to use your scope at the extraordinarily close range of 10m you come up against the limitation of many AO scopes in that the amount of close adjustment available is limited. Unless specifically designed for the air gun market most AO scopes will not focus much closer than around 20 yards/m. This makes them hard to use at 10m. Most scopes designed for FT will come in that close, but they are usually very high mag zooms, that are used for range finding.
Apart from the Hawke and Nikko Sterling 4×32AO scopes I mentioned earlier the vast majority of the fixed 4× scopes that are available, especially the better quality ones, are of the fixed focus variety. Hence my post about adjusting fixed objective scopes. Having the parallax permanently set to 10m for a scope on a 10m RT rifle is not really a big problem as it is pretty much a one trick pony.
Alan
Apart from the Hawke and Nikko Sterling 4×32AO scopes I mentioned earlier the vast majority of the fixed 4× scopes that are available, especially the better quality ones, are of the fixed focus variety. Hence my post about adjusting fixed objective scopes. Having the parallax permanently set to 10m for a scope on a 10m RT rifle is not really a big problem as it is pretty much a one trick pony.
Alan
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3P-Walther
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:46 pm
- Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
4x Scope for 10m airgun
In regard to Nemo's question about a 4x scope to shoot airgun at 10m, I have to assume that it will be on a pneumatic gun, not spring. There are a number of good quality scopes that can be set to 10m parallax. Such a scope should have the objective lens in a threaded mount screwed into the objective bell for ease of adjustment. To adjust to 10m parallax, the lens will have to be moved forward relative to the cross-hair. Many AO equipped scopes will not focus to 10m. Burris made a Mini 4x with AO that would go to 10m. It was 1" tube model with plex cross-hair. I sold 2 of them recently, and while not current production, they are around in the used market.
The Leupold M8 4x series had friction adjusters, not clicks, and while it does have the screw-in objective, but the friction adjusters limit target quality repeatibility. The old Denver-made 4x Redfields are in the same category as the Leupold, with friction adjusters, but coarser adjustments, although with an adjustable objective, they too could be made to work. Weaver K4-1 models have friction adjusters also, and the objective is a fixed position lens in a threaded mount that screws in to a shoulder, not the screw-in type that can be positioned at will. I can and have set parallax to 50m on Weaver fixed power scopes for smallbore use, and I could set it to 10m if needed with minor modification. They utilize the microtrac system with 2 bias springs internally, so adjustments are extremely repeatable, but the absence of clicks on the adjusters is a drawback. The older Weaver K4-60C models had the same fixed position objective, but 1/4 minute click adjusters, and a single bias spring - not micro-trac.
My suggestion for a good quality inexpensive scope for your purpose is a Bushnell Banner or Scopechief VI series, made in the late 70's and 80's under Bausch & Lomb supervision in Japan. They are internally quite strong, the lenses are really very good with excellent resolution and clarity, and they have quite accurate 1/4 minute click adjusters with resettable scale plates. They usually will have a duplex cross-hair. The optics are very good even by today's standards. On the used market they are $60-100 depending on model and condition. The objective lens is mounted in a threaded mount and screwed into the objective bell, with a gasket and threaded lock ring screwed down against it to seal and lock it in place. It is quite easy to adjust parallax on these models.
Alan brought up a point regarding seeing both cross-hair and target clearly simultaneously that I feel needs discussion. The ocular lenses are focused so that the shooter's eye sees a sharply focussed cross-hair. The objective lens plays no role whatsoever in this. You can remove the objective lens from the scope and still see the cross-hair perfectly. The objective lens is positioned to place the image on the plane on the reticle. It does not depend in any way on the ocular. When both image and ocular focus coincide, there is no apparent parallax and both image and reticle are sharp and clear.
Hope that helps.
Phil
Trace Scope Repair
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
The Leupold M8 4x series had friction adjusters, not clicks, and while it does have the screw-in objective, but the friction adjusters limit target quality repeatibility. The old Denver-made 4x Redfields are in the same category as the Leupold, with friction adjusters, but coarser adjustments, although with an adjustable objective, they too could be made to work. Weaver K4-1 models have friction adjusters also, and the objective is a fixed position lens in a threaded mount that screws in to a shoulder, not the screw-in type that can be positioned at will. I can and have set parallax to 50m on Weaver fixed power scopes for smallbore use, and I could set it to 10m if needed with minor modification. They utilize the microtrac system with 2 bias springs internally, so adjustments are extremely repeatable, but the absence of clicks on the adjusters is a drawback. The older Weaver K4-60C models had the same fixed position objective, but 1/4 minute click adjusters, and a single bias spring - not micro-trac.
My suggestion for a good quality inexpensive scope for your purpose is a Bushnell Banner or Scopechief VI series, made in the late 70's and 80's under Bausch & Lomb supervision in Japan. They are internally quite strong, the lenses are really very good with excellent resolution and clarity, and they have quite accurate 1/4 minute click adjusters with resettable scale plates. They usually will have a duplex cross-hair. The optics are very good even by today's standards. On the used market they are $60-100 depending on model and condition. The objective lens is mounted in a threaded mount and screwed into the objective bell, with a gasket and threaded lock ring screwed down against it to seal and lock it in place. It is quite easy to adjust parallax on these models.
Alan brought up a point regarding seeing both cross-hair and target clearly simultaneously that I feel needs discussion. The ocular lenses are focused so that the shooter's eye sees a sharply focussed cross-hair. The objective lens plays no role whatsoever in this. You can remove the objective lens from the scope and still see the cross-hair perfectly. The objective lens is positioned to place the image on the plane on the reticle. It does not depend in any way on the ocular. When both image and ocular focus coincide, there is no apparent parallax and both image and reticle are sharp and clear.
Hope that helps.
Phil
Trace Scope Repair
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Hi Alan,
I agree with you that the scope will be a single use only. The problem, as I see it, is that only Leupold can re-parallax the scopes. Or am I mistaken?
Hi Phil,
thank you for the reply, especially mentioning some of the scopes and their advantages/disadvantages. As I have noted above, I have no problem buying a used scope, the issue is that the specifications are very difficult to find and understood.
Kindest regards,
N
I agree with you that the scope will be a single use only. The problem, as I see it, is that only Leupold can re-parallax the scopes. Or am I mistaken?
Hi Phil,
thank you for the reply, especially mentioning some of the scopes and their advantages/disadvantages. As I have noted above, I have no problem buying a used scope, the issue is that the specifications are very difficult to find and understood.
Kindest regards,
N
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... adjustment
Leupold has a variety of older 4X scopes that I like. Hope the above will be of use to you.
Leupold has a variety of older 4X scopes that I like. Hope the above will be of use to you.
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3P-Walther
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:46 pm
- Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
scope specifications
Hi Nemo
What sort of specifications are you needing? Most 4x scopes have very similar specs. There are variations in % light transmission, but those are mostly numbers games for the sales people. The human eye has a hard time seeing light transmission differences that are less than 10% difference (ie 85% vs 95% transmission). Contrast and resolution are more important for target work.
I read the link about adjusting your own parallax, and it is basically what the writer says. However, many scopes do not use that 1/4 inch ring at the end for a lock ring. It is often a trim ring just to cover the objective threads and finish the scope with a more durable end. You will need to make a flat blade-like tool that engages the opposing slots in the lock ring and lens mount recessed in the objective end on those latter types. It is fairly simple.
Phil
Trace Scope Repair
What sort of specifications are you needing? Most 4x scopes have very similar specs. There are variations in % light transmission, but those are mostly numbers games for the sales people. The human eye has a hard time seeing light transmission differences that are less than 10% difference (ie 85% vs 95% transmission). Contrast and resolution are more important for target work.
I read the link about adjusting your own parallax, and it is basically what the writer says. However, many scopes do not use that 1/4 inch ring at the end for a lock ring. It is often a trim ring just to cover the objective threads and finish the scope with a more durable end. You will need to make a flat blade-like tool that engages the opposing slots in the lock ring and lens mount recessed in the objective end on those latter types. It is fairly simple.
Phil
Trace Scope Repair
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ScottEdvin
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:41 am
Scott the rules for 10m Running Target (used to be called 10m Running Boar) require the use of a fixed 4× magnification. So in this case the OP has no choice in the matter of magnification.ScottEdvin wrote:I prefer to use 4x or 10x fixed powers. I have a 4x on my .243 because it gives better magnification through the lens and you can view a little more around your object with it. So if you stay probably 4x or 10x power you'll be just fine.
Now when it comes to a sporting rifle I would prefer a 3-9×40 or better still a 3/4-12×40 (or even 50) on a rimfire. I would probably go with a fixed 6 on a centerfire stalking rifle, but don't do that myself. On my long range F-TR Class rifle I use a fixed 20× scope. On my Smallbore and Air BR rifles I generally use a fixed 36× power or whatever other magnification the rules require, The Sporter BR class that I shoot requires a maximum of 6× for example. The fixed 36× is also good for ammunition testing, although I had to have one of them slightly modified to parallax in to 10m, it only came in to 20 yards as standard. Although as yet I haven't really bothered with pellet testing in the Walther LG400 as I cannot easily get access to a variety of batches of good target quality pellets for it.
Alan