TargetTalk

So, consensus is that the Walther kk300 rifle is very good, but there is a substantial range between the prices and specifications of the available models.

Apart from the stocking and accessories, are these rifles essentially the same?!

If you're just referring to the barreled action and trigger group, then yes they're all the same.

Yes, precisely my question - thank you!

Am I right to guess, but not assume, the same is also true for the FWB 2700 series - and who would choose which; CW KK300 or FWB 2700?

Yes, the 2700 models all use exactly the same action trigger, and sights (as do the later 2602 rifles). The only difference, beyond the different stocks, is the length and diameter of the barrel.

Thanks for quick reply Tim, I knew with the FWB there was the option of 22 or 24 barrel width, but length too?

I think that currently the 22mm and 24mm dia barrels are the same length. The lightweight model (the one with the fluted barrel) may be shorter. FWB did make some short, 50cm-ish, barrels for the 2602, but I think these have been discontinued.

As an owner of a KK300 Alutec the only thing I miss from using one of the club FWB2700's is the cant adjust on the pistol grip, something the more expensive Anatomic has.
Mind you my wife loves her FWB2700 with standard barrel. She had tried a light barrel one but prefers the steadiness found with the extra weight.

The big winner however is the Walther's trigger. Arguably the best for adjustability at the moment fitted as standard gear.

so, of the two universal stocks, you'd recommend the KK300 over the 2700?

Personally I wouldn't choose either Universal stock. Both are slightly updated versions of the old UIT standard, a one-size-fits all 3-P stock. The alu stocks, or the laminate KK300 Anatomic, would give a much better fit.

I understand how sensible 'twould be to buy an adjustable competition stock - with the action already factory bedded, however, as a club shooter I simply cannot justify the expense of those stocks - particularly as going from an Anschutz M54 in club stock to something of the likes of the alutec and anatomic will, allegedly, likely lower my averages as I become accustomed the changes in geometry etc.

justvisiting wrote:I understand how sensible 'twould be to buy an adjustable competition stock - with the action already factory bedded, however, as a club shooter I simply cannot justify the expense of those stocks - particularly as going from an Anschutz M54 in club stock to something of the likes of the alutec and anatomic will, allegedly, likely lower my averages as I become accustomed the changes in geometry etc.

I would say that a small temporary dip in scores is a small price to pay if your seriously thinking about improving your shooting. The adjustability of a modern stock is worth the extra expense, after all your likely to have the same rifle for quite some time. You'd be crazy not to invest in the best you can afford just on such a minor thing. Just because your a 'club shooter' you still should be looking to shoot to your best ability whilst enjoying yourself. A well fitted stock will go a long way towards this.
Yes there are top shooters using the older style wooden stocks but you can bet that they have made changes, even if very subtle, to make the stock fit them and thus enable them to shoot well. After all a properly fitting stock is an important element of correct position.

If cost is an issue, then you will get much more for your money with a second-hand wooden-stocked Supermatch rifle, like a 1980s Anschutz 1813, or 1913, or a Walther GX-1. These were the top of the range in their day; the stocks are not quite as adjustable as a modern design, but are much superior to a "Universal". With a little work (such as customising the cheekpiece) you can get a very good fit.

Yes a new KK300 or FWB 2700 will have a spanking new barrel and a shiny test target, but you won't get the best out of it, unless the stock fits you well. The Universal stock isn't really much of an improvement over a club match 54; the cheekpeice will be adjustable, but that's about it. A used rifle may not shoot quite as well, but providing the barrel isn't abused, or shot out, it should shoot accurately, and you get a much better stock.

I would also agree that you would best off looking for a nice S/H rifle with 80's/90/s era wooden but adjustable stock such as the aforementioned 18/1913 from Anschutz or a GX1 from Walther, or even a FWB if you can find one. At least with these rifles you can custom tailor the LoP and of course the buttplates are all fully adjustable for fit. It is easy to make up a replacement cheek piece so that you can fettel it to fit, without sacrificing the original bit of walnut. Personally I was lucky in that I was able to get a very good deal on a then brand new Anschutz 1813 in 1987. Although I have had to retire from both 3P and Prone due to ill health my daughter is still shooting the rifle now 27 years later and it is still as competitive as ever.I was lucky as I got mine for £650 instead of the then list price of £900. Even at list price though that works out at around £30 a year.

We recently got my daughter a new air rifle, and she has ended up with a Walther LG 400 Alutec, not the most expensive, but the best compromise between cost and adjustability. If we had not got the really great deal on it that we did though she would have probably ended up with a nice S/H LG 300/ FWB P700 or Styer, but in the adjustable ally stock, which would have probably worked out the same cost as a new rifle in the "universal" stock would have.

Also remember that when you change your rifle, even if it were a like for like change, your scores will drop a bit for a while you adapt to the changes, however small they may be.

Alan

All very helpful comments, and I am in total agreement - the initial outlay will soon become irrelevant. I am still thinking that, given the price of stocks alone, there would be no significant penalty for buying a universal then upgrading the stock at a time further in the future.

All that besides; how do the Walther and FWB compare, generally and against comparable models?

Both are excellent rifles. Mechanically they are fairly similar; rear locking bolt with two opposed lugs. Bolts are slightly shorter than the Anschutz, and the front receiver is longer giving more support to the barrel. Triggers are very good.

A new Universal rifle costs about 70-80% of the cost of the alu-stocked Free rifle. A new alu stock will cost almost as much as the complete Universal rifle. Sometimes it's possible to offset the cost by selling the old stock, but I'm not sure there is much demand for KK300 or FWB 2700 Universal stocks; I haven't seen one for sale in the UK.

FWB 2700 free = £2570 / universal = £1753 @ edinkillie.co.uk
FWB 2700 system only with sighting, without stock = €1573 @ euroshooting.eu
Walther KK300 alutec = £2470 / universal = £1840 @ tenburyguns.com
you're right, of course, about the relative uselessness of a surplus universal stock, but it's a lot of difference in cash... perhaps i am shopping in the wrong places?
There really isn't much to choose between the CW and the FWB? What about the little and not so little things - sights, cases, build quality?

Personally the FWB sights feel too plastic-y IMO and the use leaf springs to push the sights to where the clicks are. I personally much prefer the Anschuetz sights to the FWB sights and the Walther sights (although I've never actually shot through one) seem to be all metal. In terms of sights I would definitely side with the CW and the trigger goes to CW and IMHO a case is a case ;)

Both are good rifles. The FWB alu stock is stronger than the Walther, it's extruded rather than cast. This isn't an issue with the Universal models.

Again if cost is an issue, buy second hand. An 1813 or similar can be found for £500 or less, and won't really depreciate. Then when you can afford it buy new, and buy a good modern design. If you are going to spend a lot of money on a new rifle (and a Universal model is still a lot of money), it doesn't make sense to accept such a big compromise straight away, which is what the universal is.

I'll chime in here and suggest saving for the KK300 Alutec or the FWB 2700 Supermatch - both being the free rifle alloy stocks. The sport rifle timber/laminate stocks from the three German manufacturers are all geared towards a "normal" build. The further you are from that, the greater the compromise. I'm 6'6" and 185lb in miles and gallons, so very far from normal. I second KatoomDownUnder's thoughts on the adjustments being worth the money. A good mate who has been shooting longer than I have been alive considers himself a caretaker of his shooting gear. Most of it he will never wear out or lose. If you invest in high level equipment it will always be worth something. I would struggle without an adjustable stock, probably to the point of moving on to a different sport.

For what it's worth, I own an Anschütz 1913 in a non-genuine alloy stock and a FWB 2700 Supermatch (24mm barrel) in a factory alloy stock. Both shoot very well but the trigger and grip/stock adjustments on the FWB mean it's my favoured utensil by a country mile. I've handled the KK300, and had my particular FWB emerged when it did on the second hand market I'd be shooting a KK300.