TargetTalk

My daughter (jr shooter) bought a used Anschutz 1903- on her 2nd night at the range she couldn't insert a cartridge in the chamber (approximately 30 rounds of feder gold medal 711b).

We ran a brush down the barrel, and it looked clean but still couldn't get a cartridge to seat into the chamber. So I ran the brush from the muzzle end into the action and out popped a ring of lead! After removing that, the cartridges seated in for about 3 round and we were back to the fouled up chamber again. So we quit and went home.

What would cause so much lead to build up in the chamber area? And after so few shots? Do you think there is a burr or such in the chamber? Does it need to be lapped slightly to smooth it out? Or is this a problem with the model rifle? Or just an ammo brand problem?

We are both new to smallbore- and so far off to a frustrating start! She will be attending Camp Perry next month so I need to fix this and find an ammo that will work for her.

I have never had this happen to me or heard of it happening.

First, I would wrap some 600 grit paper around an old brush and twist it around for a while in the chamber after having given the chamber a good scrubbing with a bronze brush and solvent.

Second, I would try another ammo brand. If you still have the problem, it's the gun.

Keep us posted.

You need to find a gunsmith or advanced hobbyist/competitor with a borescope so that the chamber can be inspected under magnification.

The lead ring you popped out is not all the lead that was in there you can be sure. There is most likely lots more along with plenty of carbon. Without the borescope there is no way to know when you have the chamber and bbl back to bare metal. Then you can dry out the bore and really see how smooth the chamber and bbl is. The crown also needs a good looking at.

I would contact the PO if possible and see if they ever had any issues and what sort of ammo they used. Also see what ammo the winners in your group are using.

If anything I would say that the gun wasn't kept properly clean before you got it and the lead has built up to excess. You need to acquire a good bore guide, cleaning rod, proper sized patches, 22 cal pistol brushes, etc.

Clean the barrel and chamber with the cleaning rod. Solid tip first, then brush tip. Bore light. See if there is any chance that lead was stuck inside the rifling. I would not recommend putting the rifle barrel itself into a 600' oven to melt the possible lead.

Also buy some high quality ammo. My suggestion is Eley Tenex, Lapua Midas and RWS R-50. See if that change. It could simply be a case of American ammo not fiting European barrel and chamber. Heck, I LOVE Lapua and my CM84E refuses to use it. My experience with American ammo, with the exception of CCI, is poor.

I am sure I am 180' from Rover's philosophy. He can shoot 600 with Golden Bullets or the 555. We mere mortals need expensive ammo just to shoot half of his score.

Just buy a box of each to find out which ammo the firearm likes, and then work from there. Of course, clean the barrel and chamber first. Use solvent. But make sure the solvent does not stay too long inside.

Failing that, its gun smith time.

I really have no right to say anything about this subject. I probably broke the world record of AP dumb ass by managing to jam my barrel with 11 pellets. I was banned from using or even learning how to use our house rifle or the IZH-35M. On the other hand, I am still in my 12th month of ever touching a firearm of any sort .

The worst case scenario ever will be to install a new barrel. In that case you can even upgrade from a factory barrel to something better.

Unfortunately I am guessing that this has all started to happen in the first 100 rounds or so through the barrel.

First, while clearly some ammo shoots better than others and rifles will tend to like certain brands there is no good reason why any commercial ammo should build up lead in the chambering area to the point where the cartridge cannot be inserted or the bolt closed. Bottom line, I would be surprised to hear the fix was a simple as switching brands of ammo.

Do not go down the one path suggested such as shooting Tenex, Midas or R-50. For someone just getting started that gets expensive very quickly. (If you have not looked any of those are 45 cents or so every time you pull the trigger.) Plus, even if that worked it is a band-aid to the problem. A 1903 in good condition should happily shoot Wolf, SK, Eley Target or similar level ammo, without buildup or other problems. It should also shoot Federal, CCI, Remington and etc. just fine but the accuracy won't be there.

I will second the suggestion by rayjay that you take the rifle to a gunsmith who can check the bore and also something called headspace (how tightly the rifle grips the cartridge in the chamber). It is possible something was allowed to build up in the chamber and all it will take is a good cleaning and possibly a touchup with a chamber reamer but honestly I have never heard of this problem with a 22. (I have seen it a fair bit on centerfire pistols fed lead slugs) so I have a bad feeling that this is not a simple fix.

Do you know anything about the history of the rifle? As suggested, if it was a private sale I would be making a beeline back to the previous owner, if I bought it used from a local gun shop I would be making a beeline back to that gunshop. This is definitely WAY out of the norm for any single shot bolt action 22LR rifle, let alone an Anschutz.

Good Luck
'Dude

justadude wrote:Unfortunately I am guessing that this has all started to happen in the first 100 rounds or so through the barrel.
Do not go down the one path suggested such as shooting Tenex, Midas or R-50. For someone just getting started that gets expensive very quickly. (If you have not looked any of those are 45 cents or so every time you pull the trigger.) Plus, even if that worked it is a band-aid to the problem. A 1903 in good condition should happily shoot Wolf, SK, Eley Target or similar level ammo, without buildup or other problems. It should also shoot Federal, CCI, Remington and etc. just fine but the accuracy won't be there.

I sincerely disagree but I do have to say that I was not thorough when I explain what my suggestion was. I should have asked the user to use the highest grade available as a test. If Tenex works, then go all teh way down to the lowest price one, say, team, or club. If Midas works, go all the way down, etc. Same apply for R_50. CCI has the advantage that there is no "premium quality", so that is something you need to try.

To train with Tenex, X-act, or R-50 is absolutely insane unless you have a mountain of gold hidden somewhere. I usually keep Team and Match for training and save up the Tenex. Of course being an FP shooter and do a lot of dry fire I don't shoot that much ammo so it is OK for me to use higher end stuff.

PS. the lead could have been a sign of incendiary not being burnt cleanly due to poor ammo quality.
Hence the idea of using high class and expensive stuff to test.

Just my two spent casings,

Vince

All .22 rimfire rifles build up what is sometimes called a "combustion ring" or "lead ring" right at the junction of the bullet and case. It usually takes hundreds of rounds before it becomes a problem, although it can cause accuracy drop off in as little as a hundred rounds in some rifles.

You said this was a used rifle. It may NEVER have been properly cleaned. Just running a damp patch or two through a rimfire will not remove this ring. Even though a patch may come through looking clean you can still have a significant buildup in this area.

I would not recommend the 600 grit sandpaper. That is too coarse in my opinion. I would suggest several passes with a bronze brush and lead solvent. Then put some "Flitz" polish on a tight patch and work it back and forth a dozen times or so in the chamber to first 1" or so. Repeat a couple of times with fresh Flitz. Run a couple of damp patches through. Run the brush with a few drops of solvent through another 5 or six times. Run a couple more solvent patches through, then a couple dry patches. This is an extreme cleaning intended to remove the ring.

That process should remove the lead ring buildup. If you have access to a borescope it would be great to have a look.

The gunsmith who builds my daughter's rifles recommends the following cleaning process after each use or about 100 round whichever comes first. Run one damp solvent patch through the barrel, use a .22 cal bronze brush with 2 drops of solvent. Run the brush through 1 time and unscrew it at the muzzle, do not pull back through. Run 1 more solvent patch, then 2 dry patches..... done. Do this each time the rifle is used and you will not have the combustion ring buildup issue.

Since you are just starting out and have not lot selected premium ammo the above cleaning process should work fine for you. As she progresses and you move on to premium lot tested ammo you may want to experiment with more or less aggressive cleaning. My gunsmith advised that the barrel we are using likes to be shot a little dirty so he does not want a more aggressive cleaning done. Some guns like to be shot really clean, some a little dirty. You will over time figure out the personality of your barrel which may be different with different ammo.

In some rifles the combustion ring is actually a benefit to accuracy. Many benchrest shooters have experimented to find the "sweet spot" of how many rounds they need to shoot to build the ring up for maximum accuracy, and how many more they can shoot before accuracy begins to fall off.

We have used the 711B in our local 4-H club where I coach and we have never had any problem with them leading up any faster than any other. I suspect as I said, that the rifle had just not been properly cleaned for a lot of shots.

Lots of opinions out there on cleaning.... that is mine!

rmarsh wrote:A
The gunsmith who builds my daughter's rifles recommends the following cleaning process after each use or about 100 round whichever comes first. Run one damp solvent patch through the barrel, use a .22 cal bronze brush with 2 drops of solvent. Run the brush through 1 time and unscrew it at the muzzle, do not pull back through. Run 1 more solvent patch, then 2 dry patches..... done. Do this each time the rifle is used and you will not have the combustion ring buildup issue.

My borescope tells me that if I do the above cleaning procedure after every target then my chamber stays in good shape. This is for BR with 25 record bulls and unlimited sighters which usually means 50 rounds per target.

At the end of the day I might add a couple of extra one-way passes with the bronze pistol brush and a couple of extra wet then dry patches and then the last is an oil soaked patch.

I use Ballistol for my solvent which the BPCR guys swear by and it's worked great for me.

A couple of other tips. I use a 20 cal rod and custom bore guides that are a precision fit on the rod. I also shorten the jag so it only has one knurled section. Ive already mentioned the 22 cal pistol brushes which are shorter than the standard rifle brush and therefore are easier to push down the bore and hence don't try to bend the rod as much.

Fwiw....
The FP guys I shoot with have had similar trouble chambering rounds after extended use. It seems to happen with the FP60 and Morini 84e, but not the TOZ. I've not measured the chambers, but assume the TOZ may have a wider wall diameter. The fix has been to attach a rod with bronze .223 brush to an electric drill and do a brief and careful power scrub 'of the chamber only'. Using Hoppes 9 or Simple Green as a cleaning agent, this process removes the [visible] carbon/lead ring in the chamber where the cartridge terminates, and ends the problem. Just swabbing the entire bore with a brush or patch does not fix it. The problem has reoccured in my FP60 after about 1K rounds requiring another thorough cleaning.

Also, I've seen info saying that lead hardens with age. CCI SV has always chambered normally in the FP60. Cartridges from the last case purchased [last November] have been very difficult to seat into the rifling, so I assume this lot may have been old stock. In contrast, Wolf Match Target and SK chamber effortlessly. The lead on these cartridges appears to be much softer that the problematic batch of CCI.

Interesting you bring this up on FP. My 84E has a little bit of that problem, but I usually clean it every other training sessions, so it can never build up to the point of having problems.

However, my Bühag (East German Toz Clone) can fire hundred of rounds with no problem. At one point I fired 400 shots non stop in a session. Deadly accurate, no misfire, etc, and certainly no unwelcome deposit.

Sounds like I need to spend some time on the through cleaning. I'll start there before I get into bore scrubbing and such.

Not sure how clean previous owner has kept it. He did say they found the rifle preferred Wolf Match Target ammo and included a box of those. I didn't use them as I wanted some cheap rounds (hence gold medal) to throw down range while we got the gun adjusted, etc.... then I was to make the switch to wolf (but I also wanted to try a few brands myself just to see....). Plus I have a larger supply of federal v.s. the one box of wolf.

Then back to range and try again, if problem continues- I"ll probable find a gunsmith. (does this work need to be done by Anschutz dealer or can any local guy do it)? Any recommendations for a guy in MN?

I'm also curious why it's in the chamber....almost seems to me like the bullet is being skieved as it's put into the chamber. I didn't pay attention to this when we were at the range, but after cleaning I want to check that out. Also want to use a mic and measure the difference in bullet diameter. Also plan to use a plug gauge (gage pin) to measure the chamber.

Thanks for the cleaning tips and all the info- I'll let you know how the next rounds go after a good cleaning!

Dustin Clays wrote:
I'm also curious why it's in the chamber....almost seems to me like the bullet is being skieved as it's put into the chamber. I didn't pay attention to this when we were at the range, but after cleaning I want to check that out. Also want to use a mic and measure the difference in bullet diameter. Also plan to use a plug gauge (gage pin) to measure the chamber.

The ring is right at the bullet case junction. When you insert a round the shoulder of the bullet has to be pushed through it. That should be what is causing the resistance you feel. The ring does not always build up evenly, often more on the bottom (6:00) but since you pushed some out cleaning it, it may be thicker on one side or the other. I expect a good cleaning will solve your issue.

Touching on a few things, not necessarily in order here:

Various types of actions are prone to different maladies. For those not familiar with the Anschutz 1903 it would be considered the entry level Anschutz and frankly a great first target rifle for a 12YO, boy or girl. The single shot bolt action is based on the Mark 64 action group, the bolt and receiver are somewhat lighter than the more common Match 54 based rifles. Now, here is the important part, the Mark 64 action has a decent barrel and in 40 years of experience seems to be able to shoot any 22LR cartridge. The rifles are usually pretty happy with a modest cleaning every 200 rounds or so. Only with extremely waxy ammo have I seen chambering become difficult.

The discussion has focused on lead build up in the chamber area. The question would be, why is this happening? In a single shot bolt action when the bolt closes the band on the bullet is supposed to engage in the lands of the barrel just beyond the chamber. This is called the throat area. This process is not supposed to shave any lead off merely cut and crush it out of the way of the much harder steel lands.

In a single shot smallbore rifle it would be very unusual for the combustion temperatures to be melting lead off the bullet allowing it to deposit on the barrel. Similarly, the barrel never gets very hot. Likewise with the bullet engaged in the throat there should not be a mechanism for shaving lead, apparently in this case there is.

There are two things I can think of, first when your daughter loads the rifle is she using her finger to push the round into the chamber? This is the desired technique, as dropping the round on the loading tray and letting the bolt push the round into the chamber can shave a little lead off on the mouth of the chamber.

Next for cleaning, see if you can find some RB-17, this is a water/ammonia based barrel cleaner that does and excellent job of removing lead and carbon buildup. In severe cases you may need to do a few applications but it is effective stuff. Be sure to clean and protect the barrel with an oil based cleaner when you are done. (For those to whom cleaning with a water based cleaner seems heretical, soap and water was the preferred start to cleaning in the days of mercury based primers.)

Now, the buildup ring that rmarsh has discussed. This ring is not actually a build up but an erosion. Back in the 1970s this was called the "Mark III Ring" as it showed up most often in rifles fed a steady diet of Winchester Mark III ammo. The ring was and is caused by erosion from the silicates in the priming compound. As noted, it usually first appeared at the 6 OClock position in the barrel just ahead of the chamber, eventually it would grow to cover the entire circumference of the barrel. In days of old, Eley did not have silicates in the priming compound and this ring would not appear on rifles fed Eley. To my knowledge in today's world all rimfire cartridges have silicates in the priming compound so you cannot avoid this erosion based on choice of ammo. Tests run at the USAMU back in the 1970s when this phenomenon was first noted showed that regular cleaning would significantly delay the onset of this erosion ring.

As has been noted, the first step, a good thorough cleaning, preferably with something that dissolves lead. Again, RB-17 is pretty good stuff in that department. Next, insure your daughter is pushing the round into the chamber with her finger, not the bolt. If the problem comes back with the Federal try to get some Wolf as that is what the previous owner said it liked. (Although a 1903 should be able to digest any ammo without concerns)

Finally, if all of that fails, you do not need to send the rifle to an Anschutz service center to have it looked at. Any reasonably equipped gunsmith should be able to scope the chamber to look for problems. If it turns out there is some kind of issue with the chamber it is possible it might be able to be touched up with a chamber reamer. If it is more than that I would recommend looking for someone who specializes in target 22s. Anyone who works on rimfire benchrest would be able to work on it. If there is a big issue with the chamber I would first look at having the barrel removed, cut, and rechambered and reinstalled, before I replaced the barrel. Trying to setback and rechamber the current barrel is the cost effective option. Remember, the 1903 is an intermediate rifle, most kids that go on shoot a 1903 for a year or two and move up to a 1907 or similar it is not worth getting too much invested in an aftermarket barrel.

Good Luck
'Dude

Two points.

Firstly, cheap ammo is false economy.

Secondly, anyone that thinks a rimfire doesn't develop lead deposits in the chamber has never looked at a rf chamber with a borescope.

rayjay wrote:Two points.
Firstly, cheap ammo is false economy.

Quote of the day.

Justadude's comments are by far the most accurate description of how to solve this issue. Poor maintenance/cleaning in rimfire barrels is the no1 cause of problems in RF pistol and rifle use. Just a dry patch down the bore after every session can help keep a multitude of issues at bay. Anyone who thinks a dirty barrel (read that as thousands of rounds) shoots better than a clean barrel (10 to 15 rounds shot) should look at the cleaning regimes of the benchrest crowd, some of which is extreme but overall the consenus is clean is better.

Again sensible advice from 'Dude.

To get a solid ring of lead, I wonder if the rifle had ever been cleaned at all. As you say that chambering became difficult so soon after removing a large amount of lead, makes me think that there is still a lot left, or that there is a fault with the chamber. Would an erosion ring cause that much leading? My 1813 is just showing a shadow acorss the grooves, but doesn't seem to lead, and still shoots well, although it is cleaned properly.

If the issue is still present after a very thorough clean, in fact several very thorough cleans, with brush and solvent, then I think it's time to see a gunsmith.

Firstly, cheap ammo is false economy.

rayjay wrote:
Two points.
Firstly, cheap ammo is false economy.

Quote of the day.

And a J3 new to the sport firing very top end ammo is a waste of money.

Precision shooting is a sport of specifics so in the interest of clarity, we should discuss what is cheap ammo and what is reasonable and what should this rifle accept.

First a baseline, in today's market you can buy ammo (when it is available) by the box, (50 rounds) the brick (500 rounds) or case (5000 rounds) there are a few offshoots CCI for instance sells some 100 round packages then there is the bulk stuff or perhaps better stated the bulk crap where you get some kind of container with anywhere from 375 to 1400 rounds loosely packed into the container. To clear out all the differences I always reduce everything to pennies per shot.

Next, in general what is appropriate ammo for use in a match or target rifle? To start, only ammo that is listed as being subsonic or standard velocity with a solid 40 grain slug.

There is a fair bit of 22LR ammo out there sold as high velocity or hyper velocity, in many cases cheaper than standard velocity stuff. These high velocity ammos are usually very inaccurate (groups measured in whole inches at 50 yards) and unnecessarily hard on the gun. Never use these ammos in a single shot target rifle you care about. Just to establish a lower point, some of these ammos can be found for just under 3 cents per round.

Returning to standard velocity with a 40 grain slug, you get to do some sorting there too. In the opening I mentioned bulk ammo, a bunch of rounds dumped into bucket, slap on a barcode and sell it. Standard velocity bulk ammo can be had for about 4 cents per round. Even if it is labeled as standard velocity with 40 grain slug this is not target ammo. This stuff is best left to the recreational shooters feeding AR lookalikes or 10/22 with 50 and 100 round magazines shooting at soda cans and tennis balls.

So the field is thinning, next criteria would be standard velocity, 40 grain slug and supposedly intended for target use. Now the use of the word "Target" in ammo advertising gets a little loose and may or may not have anything to do with the quality or consistency of the ammo in the box. At the low end of this you do have the Federal Gold Medal Target at 7.5 cents per round or Remington Target at 7.2 cents per round. Both of these I would consider to be at the low end of acceptability for "target" grade ammo with wide swings in consistency from lot to lot. The low end Eley "Sport" (Eley made in Mexico) at 6.8 cents per shot also fits into this category. Now while none of these are great, they should all function reliably in a single shot bolt action rifle and are certainly adequate for a new junior, especially if they are shooting at 50 feet.

Next up on the list are ammos such as Wolf Match Target, SK Standard Plus and Eley Target. These three dial in a 11.2 cents, 12 cents and 12.8 cents per round respectively. Once again, all three function reliably in a single shot bolt action rifle but at this price point there is enough extra care in manufacture so a junior shooting in the lower classifications is not giving up points at 50 yards/meters due to ammo quality issues. Any of these three are my recommendation for 90% of the juniors out there, good consistency and decent pricepoint so cost of training is not too much of an issue.

Next up are the ammos half way between training ammo and the top of the line stuff, Eley Team, Eley Match, Lapua Center X, these are 24.6 cents, 28 cents and 23 cents respectively. While I am not sure what they are, there are a few more quality control points in the manufacture of this stuff intended to improve accuracy. I have been told that Match and Team are lots of Eley Tenex that did not make the cut in final performance testing. For best performance a shooter should consider lot matching any of these to their barrel. The important thing to consider here for any parent supporting a junior, each time the rifle is fired the costs are equivalent to dropping a quarter in the dirt downrange. 1$ every 4 shots!!! only for a handful of advanced/elite juniors are such training costs justified.

Finally at the top of the pile are RWS R-50, Eley Tenex and Lapua X-act, 37 cents, 41 cents and a blistering 52 cents per shot respectively, for 22LR!!! Now, properly lot matched to a good barrel any of these ammos will give a top shooter an edge in performance. However, as conradin noted :

To train with Tenex, X-act, or R-50 is absolutely insane unless you have a mountain of gold hidden somewhere.

While Tenex, R-50 or X-act may give a shooter an extra boost in confidence, for many there will be no noted improvement in performance over the 25 cent pricepoint ammos.

Now, with all of that as a preamble, while I am absolutely not advocating the use of the cheapest ammo out there, I find the idea that the owner should try Eley Tenex to see if that solves the problem and work down from there to be very odd. Quality control of Tenex or other high line ammo is exceptional but functionally it is no better than Eley Target. Likewise, while clearly the Federal Gold Medal used by Dustin Clays who started this thread is not top of the line target ammo destined to be used in World Cup competition it should function reliably in an Anschutz 1903 without loading the chamber so badly that a round cannot be inserted or the bolt closed.

So for target rifle shooting purposes, what is cheap? Anything under 7-8 cents per round.

What is reasonable, for a new Junior? The Federal should mechanically function but within a few months I personally would recommend Wolf Match Target, SK Standard Plus or Eley Target.

What should an Anschutz 1903 accept and still work reliably, shot after shot with modest cleaning intervals? Any 22LR ammunition specified as "standard velocity" 40 grain lead slug.

Cheers,
'Dude

rayjay stated

anyone that thinks a rimfire doesn't develop lead deposits in the chamber has never looked at a rf chamber with a borescope.

I did not say there will be no lead left behind in a 22LR RF chamber, only that is does not normally build up to the point where rounds cannot be chambered. The deposit mechanism for 22LR is usually mechanical shearing, not thermal melting.

I get tiny flecks of lead out of my 22 barrels all the time and once in a while a fleck of lead from my air rifle but it never builds up to make loading a problem.

The ring that most people see without the aid of a borescope just in front of the chamber in high time barrels is erosion attributed to silcates in the priming compound, a removal of material not a buildup.

On a 22LR lead near the chamber is often found in corners between the lands and grooves but usually can only be seen with a borescope. I have never seen that tiny buildup continue to the point where a round cannot be chambered.

Cheers,
'Dude

justadude wrote:On a 22LR lead near the chamber is often found in corners between the lands and grooves but usually can only be seen with a borescope. I have never seen that tiny buildup continue to the point where a round cannot be chambered.

Cheers,
'Dude

That makes me wonder if really cheap ammo was used, or whether the chamber was cut off-centre.