Thumb Pressure for AP
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Thumb Pressure for AP
Need advice. When shooting AP, how much, if any, downward pressure is exerted by the thumb? When watching the WC finals, I've noticed the shooters often appear to exert a fair amount of downward pressure or even curl the thumb down. Is this the accepted practice? Thanks.
Basically, there should be NO effective pressure applied by the thumb. You want all the support force on the grip to be straight front to back. The thumb is in the wrong place for that.
For most of our lives, we instinctively grab things between our forefinger & thumb. That means when you pull with your trigger finger, part of you will want to move your thumb towards your forefinger. That will apply sideways pressure to the pistol, and will push your shots off to the side. Part of learning to shoot well it to train your hand so the thumb is no longer part of the process. The most consistent pressure you can apply with your thumb is zero.
For most of our lives, we instinctively grab things between our forefinger & thumb. That means when you pull with your trigger finger, part of you will want to move your thumb towards your forefinger. That will apply sideways pressure to the pistol, and will push your shots off to the side. Part of learning to shoot well it to train your hand so the thumb is no longer part of the process. The most consistent pressure you can apply with your thumb is zero.
I certainly find that my shots group better with no thumb pressure, at least most days. Still not a consistent enough competitor to have nailed that and a few other things down, and the odd day it actually seems to go slightly better with considerable downward thumb pressure. But I am trying to learn to use none and see how far that gets me.
At the European championship and then at the World Cup in Changwon recently, I noticed a lot of thumbs curving downwards among both male and female finalists. Some were visibly squashed at the thumb tip, with an obviously significant amount of force being applied to the grip while at this downward angle. A few notable exceptions, such as Ekimov whose thumb seems absolutely free from pressure and a few others who seem similar. But the majority of finalists in Korea were doing this. Here's a composite showing a number of examples, mostly from the more recent world cup:
I'm not advocating this, only pointing out something which struck me as rather odd. Wondering why I hadn't noticed it before this year. I'll have to go back and look at last year's ISSF videos a bit and see if this is a recent change for some of these top level shooters.
At the European championship and then at the World Cup in Changwon recently, I noticed a lot of thumbs curving downwards among both male and female finalists. Some were visibly squashed at the thumb tip, with an obviously significant amount of force being applied to the grip while at this downward angle. A few notable exceptions, such as Ekimov whose thumb seems absolutely free from pressure and a few others who seem similar. But the majority of finalists in Korea were doing this. Here's a composite showing a number of examples, mostly from the more recent world cup:
I'm not advocating this, only pointing out something which struck me as rather odd. Wondering why I hadn't noticed it before this year. I'll have to go back and look at last year's ISSF videos a bit and see if this is a recent change for some of these top level shooters.
-
ModestoPete
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:36 pm
- Location: Northern California
I agree
I have been watching those same videos and noticed that what we have been told for years about not applying thumb pressure does not seem to be what is being used by the top shooters for at least the last 2 to 3 years.
Most of the competitors in the finals do use their thumb to grip
Just an observation.
Most of the competitors in the finals do use their thumb to grip
Just an observation.
Life's like that generally. Of course there are rules we must follow for safety which plainly cannot be avoided, but many of the so-called rules in any activity are tossed out the window by some of the top practitioners. I've seen amazingly talented chefs cutting things up without using 'the claw' for instance, yet they don't lose fingertips. Beyond a certain level of skill one can afford to have quirks.
I saw in a short documentary on Yehudi Menuhin years ago where he was listening to Cory Cerovsek - http://coreycerovsek.com/ - who was about 14 at the time, during a master class. After some absolutely spellbinding playing by Cory, Maestro Menuhin approached him and said something along the lines of 'Ordinarily upon seeing a violin student hooking the thumb around the neck in such a way I would instruct them to correct it, as such a grip on the neck impedes musicality. However it is plain in this case that I should keep my mouth shut.' Not a quote, but that was the gist of it, and it more or less applies here with shooting. Cory's thumb hooked far, far around the neck of his fiddle. Still does, almost absurdly so, in a way which makes teachers cringe and is 'known' to prevent any fluency in the left hand. And yet there it is, the evidence in the music played that there is no impediment. He acquired a bad habit as a kid and just plays brilliantly anyway.
I doubt any of these top level shooters learned to hook their thumbs downwards, often with considerable force, when they were starting out... but it does seem evident that at some level such a gesture is offering a benefit. Perhaps we mere mortals in the sub-570 range would not realise similar benefit. It could be something which only comes into play when so much else has been worked out to near-perfection. I'd say it's probably worth playing around with during a slow time of the season, when it won't get in the way of match preparation. It could prove useful after all, and one can never know without trying. But my guess is that there is a very specific reason and related information involved, something to which we are not privy, so the effort could easily prove fruitless without that knowledge.
I saw in a short documentary on Yehudi Menuhin years ago where he was listening to Cory Cerovsek - http://coreycerovsek.com/ - who was about 14 at the time, during a master class. After some absolutely spellbinding playing by Cory, Maestro Menuhin approached him and said something along the lines of 'Ordinarily upon seeing a violin student hooking the thumb around the neck in such a way I would instruct them to correct it, as such a grip on the neck impedes musicality. However it is plain in this case that I should keep my mouth shut.' Not a quote, but that was the gist of it, and it more or less applies here with shooting. Cory's thumb hooked far, far around the neck of his fiddle. Still does, almost absurdly so, in a way which makes teachers cringe and is 'known' to prevent any fluency in the left hand. And yet there it is, the evidence in the music played that there is no impediment. He acquired a bad habit as a kid and just plays brilliantly anyway.
I doubt any of these top level shooters learned to hook their thumbs downwards, often with considerable force, when they were starting out... but it does seem evident that at some level such a gesture is offering a benefit. Perhaps we mere mortals in the sub-570 range would not realise similar benefit. It could be something which only comes into play when so much else has been worked out to near-perfection. I'd say it's probably worth playing around with during a slow time of the season, when it won't get in the way of match preparation. It could prove useful after all, and one can never know without trying. But my guess is that there is a very specific reason and related information involved, something to which we are not privy, so the effort could easily prove fruitless without that knowledge.
Further to David M's comment, and the photos:
You may find that the shooters with their thumbs hooked down have removed the front end of their thumb rest. I also shoot a lot of AP, and after experimenting with many grip styles (particularly the thumb position), I have found that this gives me the most consistent results. You can now grip the pistol with the 'pincer' between the base of the thumb and the forefinger without adding the 'twisting' pressure from the end of the thumb.
You may find that the shooters with their thumbs hooked down have removed the front end of their thumb rest. I also shoot a lot of AP, and after experimenting with many grip styles (particularly the thumb position), I have found that this gives me the most consistent results. You can now grip the pistol with the 'pincer' between the base of the thumb and the forefinger without adding the 'twisting' pressure from the end of the thumb.
The thumb should be exerting no pressure merely resting. Don't believe everything you think a picture tells you, although consistency is also very important - if you can keep thumb pressure the same for every shot then it may not cause you too many problems but relaxed is 100x easier to replicate.
Rob.
Rob.
Relaxed being easier to replicate would seem to further the argument that it's the best approach for novice to intermediate shooters, where elite-level folks are free to curl their thumbs over and exert substantial pressure, with or without a carved groove for the thumb - without carving there in at least several of the grips seen in the Changwon videos. Same sort of thing applies in any pursuit. Elite performers in whichever game typically throw the 'rules' out the window when it comes to technique, as they've learned through hard practice EXACTLY what works for them best.
Those pix showing the shooters curling their thumbs is nothing new...as far as I am concerned. It is a very common technique that has been taught as far a "correct grip" is concerned for quite a few years now. I have use the "thumb curl" for more years than I wish to recall. The curling of the thumb eliminates the length of the fulcrum pushing down of the thumb rest thereby lessening the force to be applied to the grip and increases the area the thumb pressing against the grip as an assist in holding the gun. As far as thumb pressure is concerned, the techniques being taught for the past 55+ years through the Soviet block etc.' til today still calls for the thumb pressure to be minimized. The opposition of the thumb and trigger finger makes both fingers responsible for the trigger pull and the cause of movement of pattern. That sudden complaint " all my shots moved to the right tonight on the first target... what's wrong?????....". The thumb and trigger fingers, working in opposition to each other, are eventually the culprits IMHO....."Doc" The Cranky Ole Coach.