When is the sight picture good enough? (With long intro)

[rhitee93]

Hi all, I’ve been lurking around here for a couple of years. I’ve learned a lot, but not really felt able to contribute. I’m really just a hack pistol silhouette shooter who stumbled into 10m air rifle and pistol by accident. I fell in love with the zen like approach to focusing on shot details, but have never really competed seriously. However I have gotten more serious about my practice & training over the last couple of years, and want to start setting some goals for myself.

Let me be honest up front. In pistol, I am only a 520 shooter now, and am only hoping to get to 540 by February. If I can get to 550 by next year this time I’ll be thrilled. I’m 41 years old, and have no delusions of starting a career in pistol shooting. Taking lessons and finding a coach are not in my future either. Any time and money I might have for such things is going to various lessons for my kids right now. Realistically, I am not going to make my pistol shooting a priority over them.

I have gleaned a lot of knowledge from this group, but there is one thing I haven’t been able to reconcile on my own. So here is my first question:

I am keenly aware of the difference between sight alignment and sight picture, and that the alignment is much more important. When I do dry fire training with a blank wall, I find myself able to achieve good sight alignment and execute good trigger control and follow through. However, once I put the target into the system, I have a hard time deciding when to start the trigger sequence. The result is I either get chicken finger, or overcompensate and rush the trigger pull.

I know that the fundamentals say to focus on sight alignment and ignore the target, but you do have to at least be in the right aiming zone. Are there drills to do to help get calibrated to what is “Close enough” for the aiming zone?

Right now I have a camera set up in near my target holder so I can look over at a monitor and see where my live shots land. This has done a lot to boost my confidence that good things happen with good sight alignment and trigger technique. However, about 50% of the time, I fail to start the trigger sequence when I settle into the 6 o-clock hold because the sight picture seems to be too far left and right. (Or up and down)

Lately I have been focusing more on making sure my stance is repeatable, and that my natural point of aim is correct, but I am getting a little discouraged. I could also use some conditioning to obtain a more steady hold.

Should I do dry fire drills with an actual target? That seems to be frowned upon.

Thanks in advance for your input, and I apologize for such a long first post…

[David Levene]

[quote="rhitee93"]Are there drills to do to help get calibrated to what is “Close enough” for the aiming zone?/quote]

I get the impression, but might be wrong, that you are asking when you know that the size of your aiming area is small enough.

There is very little, if anything, that you can do to reduce the size of the aiming area on any particular day. That size is the result of your physical, mental and (to a lesser degree) technical training over previous months.

Accept the size of your hold and amount of movement on the day and just place that in a comfortable position (usually) below the target. Do not try to fight the movement; compared to the sight alignment and trigger release it is relatively insignificant.

[rhitee93]

Thank you David. Your response made me realize I am grouping two issues into one.

1. I am trying the fight the size of my aiming area. As you say, there is not much I can do in the short term about that, and that it is not as critical as the other aspects of the shot.

2. I am also struggling with where the aiming area is centered. This has all got to point back to a poorly located NPOA.

I think I am going to spend the my next session focusing on achieving a good NPOA. I am pretty diligent about doing this with a rifle, but tend to get sloppy about it when it comes to pistol. It seems much harder to repeat the same position again and again with the outstretched arm!

[Rover]

You might do better if you realize that there IS NO NPOA. (Unlike rifle shooting)

You shouldn't be "fighting" the wobble; you'll never be able to hold still. Just relax and concentrate on a good trigger squeeze

[Russ]

You might do better if you realize that there IS NO NPOA. (Unlike rifle shooting)

You shouldn't be "fighting" the wobble; you'll never be able to hold still. Just relax and concentrate on a good trigger squeeze

May I ask you, from what level of personal expertise (competitive performance in AP and FP are you talking about) some people can get confused by your "TT appearance score".

[C. Perkins]

I am in the camp that there is a NPOA in precision pistol shooting.
I will try and explain it the best I can.
In no way am I a top shooter but this is from my experience as from my results.

NPOA to me is the pistol grip is set up so rake and cant are as good as can be, then setting yourself up with NPOA to the target.

This is a natural hold and position relationship of your arm to pistol to target.
There is no fighting(the muscles and etc of your wrist, arm and shoulder), movement to keep your aim in the center of the target.
Only thing left is your wobble within the best area that can be achieved.

The rest is sight alignment(trust your sight picture and repeat it), trigger control and of coarse follow through.

Your mileage may vary.
Try it, it may work for you too.

Clarence

[Russ]

Rover wrote: “You might do better if you realize that there IS NO NPOA”.

This is my point of view. Someone who is applied this concept in Olympic pistol performance is losing at least 10-15 Conservative potential points.

If this concept applied toward combat or tactical pistol is nothing wrong with that, because there is no time to apply NPA during a combat encounter.

[Greg Derr]

NPA, sure is. Not like rifle with slings and tight leather, but stand for 2-3 hours training FP or AP and you will feel the effects of not using a NPA. Think of it in terms of " where does my body want to point with the least amount of effort for the longest period of time "

[jackh]

The information by Piddubnyy on steadiness has been very helpful to me.
http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli.shtml

[Russ]

Rover wrote: “You might do better if you realize that there IS NO NPOA”.

I’m wondering, how many people affected by this statement and for how many years?

[rhitee93]

The information by Piddubnyy on steadiness has been very helpful to me.
http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli.shtml

Thanks Jack, I read that a long time ago, and forgot about it. I'll have to study it again.

As for the NPoA firestorm, I think I'll continue to believe the that the best position for me to shoot from is the one where I need to use the least muscle input for the weapon to fall into the aiming area. This all starts with the feet and moves up the body from there. I don't focus on this as much as I should with pistol.

Thanks all!

[jackh]

I have always thought that NPoA should mean Natural Position of Alignment to your EYE.

[Russ]

I have always thought that NPoA should mean Natural Position of Alignment to your EYE.

NPA is natural point of aim.
NPA is one of the key elements to properly establish body position.
Alignment has different values.

I do not have too much time and desire to read or correct what you guys are "sharing" in “Olympic Pistol”, including misconceptions of the certain values related to your own insufficient score performance. Sharing these misconceptions with other members is not doing any good for them, it only makes your “TT appearance score” higher.

For recreational activities with Olympic pistol, it is not bad idea to use try and error method, where time value has no limits and score stagnation is less important than fun value. For competitive athletes, it is devastation of a potential higher level of performance, a waste of time and money “invested in competitive performance”.

[rmca]

One other thing besides NPA. You said that you are around the 520 mark. This means that you still make mistakes that costs you a lot of points (ex. 6s or 7s) One of the best things that I can say to you is:

Learn when to cancel a shot.

Put the gun down if the is something that's not right (to much wobble) and start again.

This will bring your scores higher much faster.
Learn when to cancel a shot.

[CR10X]

rhitee93, (it would be better with a name, but ok)

Based on your initial question and notwithstanding all the replies that followed trying to prove some point, I'd like to suggest the following. And this is based on my experience, starting bullseye at over 40, making master in a short time, 4 matches to distinguished, etc, etc. It don't make a damn what any ones says if it doesn't make sense to you and you can't figure out what they mean.

Right now I have a camera set up in near my target holder so I can look over at a monitor and see where my live shots land. This has done a lot to boost my confidence that good things happen with good sight alignment and trigger technique. However, about 50% of the time, I fail to start the trigger sequence when I settle into the 6 o-clock hold because the sight picture seems to be too far left and right. (Or up and down)

I would suggest starting the trigger as soon as the sights are generally in the preferred sight picture area, basically anywhere close to the 6:00 appearance you have chooses. By stating that you are waiting to see if its too far right or left means you are probably looking at the target and not the sight alignment. Stop that, start looking at the sight alignment. Learn to see what you need to see to shoot a 10! And it ain't the target

Lately I have been focusing more on making sure my stance is repeatable, and that my natural point of aim is correct, but I am getting a little discouraged. I could also use some conditioning to obtain a more steady hold.

Again, your attention is being drawn to the target, not the sights. Stop that.

Should I do dry fire drills with an actual target? That seems to be frowned upon.

Do dry fire with a target. Do holds on a dot or blank or anything that is not a target. Do not train to see a target and just hold, not activate the trigger. Dry fire with a target is great, if you are firing.

Hopes this helps your actual question.

Cecil Rhodes

[Rover]

Gee, I wonder why Don Nygord would want to steer me wrong telling me to my face there is no NPOA.

Why would Brian Zins back him up?

[Russ]

Gee, I wonder why Don Nygord would want to steer me wrong telling me to my face there is no NPOA.

Why would Brian Zins back him up?

You are appealing to certain personalities and their credentials. From my knowledge, there are no high score records in Olympic pistol discipline from Brian Zins if I'm not mistaken. I saw his records around 570 in Air Pistol. I do not remember his Free Pistol records, probably around 540.

I will not judge Don Nygord's concepts. In addition, I can tell you there are certain misconceptions in the bible of target shootingof Yur' Yev, "Competitive Shooting". There are small corrections, but they can impact a highly motivated athlete's performance at a certain level. Time and new knowledge in psychology, neurology, and high performance studies can be used in our days to enhance old knowledge.

[shooter560]

You know what, the biggest thing you can do in any form of shooting is being comfortable and from comfort comes repeatability, from repeatability comes grouping and from grouping comes scores.

Don't take too much (no matter how good they think they are) from those who coach as a business and are only out to help if they think a buck could be earned, I'd say the best coach is the one who is passionate about a sport and willing to give back as well, I don't mind anyone covering expenses BUT not being bothered to read as there's no personal gain is proof of a business not a passion.

[Russ]

You know what, the biggest thing you can do in any form of shooting is being comfortable and from comfort comes repeatability, from repeatability comes grouping and from grouping comes scores.

Don't take too much (no matter how good they think they are) from those who coach as a business and are only out to help if they think a buck could be earned, I'd say the best coach is the one who is passionate about a sport and willing to give back as well, I don't mind anyone covering expenses BUT not being bothered to read as there's no personal gain is proof of a business not a passion.

You are Absolutely right about key word of “comfort”.
And fail to understand concept idea of "consulting", when all other methods are not working as well as a smart tips. ;)

[jackh]

This from Blankenship. Notice the words "still", "natural" and "eye". This is the NPA concept I believe in.

"Sight alignment has to do with only the alignment of the front and rear sights and has nothing to do with the target. Where you hold on the target is not too important as long as you hold as still as you can and in the same place for each shot. The greatest lesson I learned and one that made the greatest difference in score was to bring the focus of the eye from the target to the front sight. I found that during my experimenting that the focus of the eye was shifting back and forth from the front sight to the target and sometimes the focus was on neither, but somewhere in between! Perfect sight alignment is necessary to get good scores, and having a natural alignment of the arm, hand and gun to the eye will keep the sights perfectly aligned."