TargetTalk

I've done a search and read dozens of wonderful posts hereabouts concerning various issues with getting grips to fit. I understand (enough for now, I think) about the various putties, finishes, texture concerns, etc.

What I don't understand are the basic procedures/concepts surrounding making a grip fit.

Here's what I mean. The pistol I have is long out of production and, unless I want to start with a new block of wood, obtaining a replacement is not feasible. It came with a grip far too small for me and I bought a replacement simply because it's large enough to fit my hand. The one that came with the pistol was quite small but the new grip is plenty big. However, in every other way it's just...wrong. There are gaps between my hand and the grip. There are places where the grip digs in. Nothing is right.

As I go about trying to catalog the problems, I find that there seems to be (at least) two ways to fix everything. Moving the palm shelf high helps with the placement of the non-trigger fingers but exacerbates other problems. Relieving the stock underneath the base joint of my thumb would impact the way the shelf fits my hand. Filling in the gap at the base of my palm would change how high the shelf should be. Relieving the stock at the web of my hand would move my palm off the swell, while keeping my palm centered on the swell forces the fingers below the trigger guard into an odd, uncomfortable angle. I'm right-handed and the entire right grip panel is too thick, placing the pistol much too far to the left in my grip. It's also too thick at the top, below the rear of the pistol, placing the pistol higher than necessary in my hand.

Get the idea? Everything that's wrong has an impact on some other part of the grip; fixing any one thing will definitely make other things better or worse. At this stage, too, none of the possible changes or their subsequent impacts on the way other parts of the grip become better or worse are at all subtle.

All the narratives I've read here and elsewhere have come from a basic position of "I have this grip that's mostly right but I just need to change/fix one thing." I'm not in that position. I need a greater understanding of the basic concept, of what it takes to fit a grip from the beginning.

It seems to me that once I make the first fix every subsequent change will be impacted, if not dictated.

So where do I start? What's the first thing to address? Is there a conventional wisdom about this sort of thing, something along the lines of "Get parameter X right first, then let all subsequent adjustments flow from there"? Or am I fruitlessly over-thinking this, asking for a checklist approach to creating something more akin to art?

TIA for any help or insights.

http://www.usashooting.org/11-resources ... olshooting

Some information I found. Does this help out, or am I going down the wrong path?[/url]

Seems to be some excellent information there. I'd suggest a few simple things to bear in mind before removing any significant chunks of wood, mostly to do with keeping a few key parameters from getting lost.

- Maintain as much wood as practical in the web between finger and thumb, as this area is too often pared down leaving a gap or weak contact. If it's too big in the end, trim it then, carefully, but it can wait. Further, when it does come to shaping this area, try to make it a slightly rounded V shape, as the thinner skin of the web won't mind being compressed and the sure pressure into the web will offer better support.

- The trigger finger's correct alignment approaching the trigger (somewhat flexible, depending on desired height of the hand - you want it higher so focus on that - and the adjustability of your pistol's trigger) comfort and freedom from contact with the grip and pistol frame is rather important. Centre your carving plans around that alignment/positioning before anything else... in my opinion. In carving my Rink grip to suit my large hand I first attacked the trigger parts, as the stock Pardini K10 trigger was just too far below the trigger. After modifying a couple of things I was able to get it canted to the right at a comfortable angle while still centred in the frame (that was a bit tricky) and raise it about 4mm. Not quite so high as my previous, a Baikal 46m, but enough to live with. I then set to work carving above the web and trigger finger base knuckle etc. such that my hand could rise to match, angling downwards enough that the wrist locked a bit more. I recently carved a couple of millimetres away from the frame edge as well, clearing all contact with the finger as it approaches the trigger from rather a lot higher than the trigger.

- Bring your palm shelf up to lock in the hand once the upper grip is sort of settled, if not refined yet. See if that feels secure, and take careful note of pressure points, considering your other readings regarding hand angle ideals. I like a decent swell into the palm, rounding the hand a bit, but luckily the Rink provided that already. Then I carved away for my pinkie on the front of the shelf as it was too tight against the shelf, raised the thumb rest a bit to match the carving I'd done for the trigger finger first knuckle, and my whole hand was settled into a more downwards angle and snugly fitted. Tiny refinements after that.

So what I'm saying in short is work your way from the trigger outwards/downwards. The shelf it highly adaptable, or should be. Replace it with new wood if you need to, like if you mess it up or if it's just not the right shape. I like to keep putty to a minimum, but used Sugru under the thumb and that worked out well. Wouldn't want to use it on a more high-pressure area though as its rubbery finish might be too slippery when sweaty. Try to keep as much wood on critical pressure areas as possible. Good luck, and do contemplate carefully before getting out the knife or dremel.

I would just say don't rush into this, I like many others before no doubt have ruined grips by meddling with them with little or no knowledge.

First make sure you are placing your hand into the grip correctly and consistently.
Secondly (if possible) try different manufacturers grips - Rink are wrong for me but Morini are a very good fit with much less modification required but both are medium RH. Another guy makes grips for LP10 -Ciro see Maennel website in Austria you can buy 25+ different grip sizes.
Thirdly - before you add wood putty in different areas try using blue-tac as a temporary moldable alternative.

Its very easy to ruin a £100 grip and now I use standard Morini RH grips with no problems. If your grip too thick try Rink as they are thinner generally. Also consider buying a grip second hand from somewhere like eGun.de website and hack that around. What pistol is it for?

There is a very detailed write-up by Igor (he is also a member here) about making a match pistol grip from scratch: http://toz35.blogspot.com/search/label/aw93

md123180 wrote:Some information I found. Does this help out...

Perfect. Thank you so much. While at least one of the articles in the series by SFC Merrill is missing from that page (I'll look for it), what's there is excellent.

Gerard wrote:Seems to be some excellent information there. I'd suggest a few simple things to bear in mind...

Thank you for your thoughts; they seem quite reasonable.

Gerard wrote:Good luck, and do contemplate carefully before getting out the knife or dremel.

Indeed, I'll need the luck.

And as for the "contemplate carefully" part, that's what got me into this. When I said I was attempting to "catalog" the problems with the grip and how fixing one thing would impact others, I wasn't kidding. I was actually trying to write down every needed/possible change and see if I could understand what to do in what order. It was after spending several hours over a few days on that task that I finally posted here.

A74BEDLM wrote:I would just say don't rush into this...

Agreed. PM sent and thank you for your insights.

caa028 wrote:http://toz35.blogspot.com/search/label/aw93

I cannot thank you enough for pointing me to that wonderful blog.

I made a copy router so don't worry too much about messing up, I usually make up a grip from soft wood and car body filler, then copy it onto a nice piece.

I usually:

Copy the rough profile from an existing grip, taking care to get the position where the web of the had contacts the back of the grip and its relation to the trigger position right.

Then start hacking away, working from the back of the grip first, once that is right - the gun is aligned with your arm as you like it - you can start removing material to allow your fingers to wrap around.
Working from the front to back doesn't work in my experience.

JamesH wrote:Working from the front to back doesn't work in my experience.

Thanks for the reply.

As to your statement that I've quoted, I'm not surprised. Upon initially reading all the material people have so kindly pointed out, I see multiple instances of directly contradictory thinking. I expected that. Grip shaping seems to be like everything else in life; the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know anything.

There is an article on this website that may help.

www.pistol-shooting.com

Wozzy

Believe in your eyes. Study other people's grips. If you come up with something weird and wonderful that doesn't resemble any kind of pistol grip you see on the web, you're probably on the wrong path. If the ratio of wood to plastic goes beyond 1:3, dump it and start from scratch. The egun tip is good, keep looking out for used grips that can be worked on. You can buy unfinished grips from Nill, Rink and Morini if you ask, they are cheaper and easier to make something stick on them, as they are not oiled. The explanations on ISSF academy are pretty good, start by defining the main contact points and angles you want, and work from there. Don't worry about wasting a grip or two, once you start doing your own grips, you won't stop anyway... ;-)

Wozzy wrote:There is an article on this website...

Excellent article. Thanks.

Tycho wrote:Believe...

Good conceptual advice and real encouragement in the same response. Thank you very much, Tycho; I needed that.

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You say "pistol I have is long out of production"... grips for many older pistols are available aftermarket, what pistol are we talking about ?

Having made and fitted a number of grips, the one bit of advice I would underscore is to go slow! What feels like a huge lump someplace may just need a tiny bit of sanding. Gaps you can see are a little easier. although I'd build them up with something temporary first to get the rough size right. It's also amazing how a small change someplace will propagate around the grip, requiring further changes to an area you thought was just fine. It can be a very maddening experience.

If you have a copy router, one option would be to build up the small grip with putty. That way you can play to your hearts content until its perfect, and spit one out in wood with the copy router.