TargetTalk

So as to avoid threadjacking, I've started a new topic. In another discussion, this was posted:

chuckjordan wrote:BTW, some clubs fees (initial and yearly) are astronomical. raising membership dues is clearly a way to curtail early adult shooters (18-30) from joining.

That got me to thinking. I agree that a lack of funds often keeps young people out of the shooting sports and that's a tragedy. Still, clubs must cover costs.

I pay USD$600/year for unlimited access to a very good indoor range with sensible rules. I could pay far more at an indoor range with very advanced facilities. I could pay far less for membership in an outdoor club that's downright crude. Personally, I'd be happy to pay for membership at a crude/cheap outdoor club in addition to my current situation; unfortunately, all the clubs that meet that description are either too far from my home to be convenient or have multi-multi-years-long waiting lists to join.

So at what point does the cost of a club membership become divorced from the benefits derived? What's the definition of "astronomical"?

Two postscripts -

1. The poll questions are phrased in a U.S.-centric manner because that's where my experience lies. I'd love to hear about the situations faced by shooters in the rest of the world.

2. The more I think about this topic, the more I think it's important. Cheap and easy facilities can help a sport grow. For example, practical shooting is very popular in the U.S. yet requires next to nothing in facilities. The bang-bang-bang pistol sports can be practiced wherever there's an open gravel pit and a few cheap target holders. Pepper poppers, plate racks and plenty of expensive doo-dads can be added as time and finances allow but they aren't required to get started. On the flip side, for some disciplines there is a perceived need for expensive facilities. This creates an initial barrier to entry, real or imagined, that many clubs and individuals will not be motivated to overcome.

I'm not willing to drive 2+ hours round trip to shoot air pistol (or .22 silhouette either, have 60 acres of land). I just can't justify the fuel.

BUT, the club I grew up with, one that was formed over 50 years ago and has both an outdoor range with up to a mile shooting (pistol, rifle and they just recently bought a clay machine), and an 8-point indoor range for air and .22lr only... the yearly dues are $75. Well, unless you're an NRA member, then there's a $25 credit. And if you volunteer a couple hours (work crew, manning a booth at a fair, etc...) then there's another $25 credit... so one could pay $25/year for full access. There's another $1/hour fee for using the indoor range to cover utilities (during non-scheduled nights/hours). Granted, that's middle of nowhere Wyoming, but it's an active club with facilities that I consider my "bar" for what a shooting club should be.

Having seen a number of ranges, it's smaller than a lot... but also nicer than a lot too. I was completely shocked by how dumpy the last one I visited in a major city was, AND the fees they were asking to use the facility were unreal. I'd never, ever, spend more than $100~200/year, and it would have to be some high-tech range to weasel that kind of money from my pockets. But that's the beauty of shooting Air, all you need is 10m of space and $10 in supplies for a pellet trap.

...will vary greatly, with a number of factors driving costs. Comparisons are rarely valid without adjustments for factors like cost of land, new club vs established club, cost of utilities, insurance, etc. If the range is a commercial range it's even harder to make a valid comparison.

My club dues have been under $200/year for a while; it was $40/year twenty years ago.

GOVTMODEL wrote:...will vary greatly, with a number of factors driving costs. Comparisons are rarely valid without adjustments for factors like cost of land, new club vs established club, cost of utilities, insurance, etc. If the range is a commercial range it's even harder to make a valid comparison.

I agree completely that costs comparisons are difficult to impossible. What interests me, though, isn't what it costs to run a range. I'm wondering what people are willing to pay.

BenEnglishTX wrote: I agree completely that costs comparisons are difficult to impossible. What interests me, though, isn't what it costs to run a range. I'm wondering what people are willing to pay.

Isn't that a bit of a circular argument ? I'm chairman of a club so I know our outgoings and all the fees coming in. We keep our fees reasonably low for what we offer. So it's much cheaper than golf, more expensive than walking ;) It's also far cheaper than just about any other sport you want to participate in.

What am I prepared to pay ? Well probably 5 - 10x what I currently do if I really had to but I'd end up having to make sacrifices elsewhere.

Rob.

BenEnglishTX wrote:

GOVTMODEL wrote:...will vary greatly, with a number of factors driving costs. Comparisons are rarely valid without adjustments for factors like cost of land, new club vs established club, cost of utilities, insurance, etc. If the range is a commercial range it's even harder to make a valid comparison.

I agree completely that costs comparisons are difficult to impossible. What interests me, though, isn't what it costs to run a range. I'm wondering what people are willing to pay.

That is also a function of what you have to offer. I'd be happy to pay more if my club had more to offer.

Since I've been quoted, let me explain what I said. I also know some club members visit TT and hope I don't offend them.

First, this club has about 600 acres, with these ranges (and maybe more that I don't know about): 100 yd rifle, 50M pistol (where I shoot Std, FP, RP) with automatic target turners, Rimfire Silhouette, CF silhouette, IDPA, 200/300yd. And a fishing pond. And at 25 miles away it's close. Just about everything for anyone. I am not (yet?) a member.

The price with initiation is ~ $900, renewal is $200 annual. There is no daily fee, if your not a member you can only shoot at events.

I'm 52 and I can pay the initiation and the renewal. Although I feel it's high. I look at the shooters that frequent the club and all appear over 40. What does that tell me (and you)? Where is the younger generation of shooters?

When I was a youngster, I had my two uncles farms (Northern Illinois) to shoot at and we went there at least 1X-2X monthly when it was nice out. My family had farmer friends in Wisconsin and also hunted a couple of their farms. This was the 70's-80's. Plus there were many ranges in the Chicagoland area. My point is there were many places to shoot and prices were reasonable. Sorry to digress.

But my point is: how can a college-age young man find a place/afford a place to shoot? My son is 28 and he can't afford that. I don't see many youngsters (besides being with their parents) at these ranges. And there are fewer places to shoot.

Is the 'price of admission' to these ranges too high and is the older generation (40+) going to be the last ones with firearms? I know the youngsters (21-30 crowd) are buying firearms, but, where are they shooting?

Here in the Albuquerque NM area there are a few options ranging from a city range, two private clubs and a commercial range.

The City range costs $6/day per gun, except for trap/skeet which is $6/round I think. My only problem with this range is it is 50 miles from my house and time/gas is an issue... most rifle pistol shooting is on covered pads but we have had airgun matches in the training buildings.

The commercial range is mostly for pistol, but you can fire a rifle ... $350 per year membership. Issue there is the hours 10am-8pm and is 30 miles

One private (Del Norte) range is $150 a year with a $100 initiation fee. This is OK and affordable along with I think you can use almost 24/7. Issue ... over 70 miles from my house

The other Private (Zia) is only 12 miles from my house and is $120/year ... access is 24/7 and we have an indoor clubhouse 50ft range that we use for JR smallbore rifle training and matches. Obviously, I'm a member there and my club uses this range exclusively for smallbore rifle.

Our 4-H Air rifle "range" is down in Belen (12 miles south) and is in the County fairgrounds building ... we have pretty much exclusive access except for special events and of course at fair time.

All our private ranges are very supportive of the youth programs and Zia helps tremendously with helping our juniors get to national matches with travel grants.

I've realized that we here in central NM are very blessed with affordable, supportive ranges.

I would also like to mention what Brian mentioned. With a 10M AP/AR, you just need (a little over) 10M of space.

In my house I have 2 bedrooms that are devoted to my 10M shooting range. I have measured out 10M and (safely) shoot between these rooms. These 2 Br's are on the 3rd floor of my house, and separate enough to be safe.

I can shoot anytime in any weather, and all I have to do is climb my stairs to my 10M range.

So I have no excuse to get trigger/training time with my AP. Also, since I restore old (1951-1970) luftgewers I get time with them too.

The clubs need to let people pay off the big initial hit over a couple of years. Odds are you aren't going to see anyone under 21 shooting without someone over 21 with them. The outdoor clubs are either a great deal and have a waiting list around here or so far away they are impractical. We have some nice public ranges on WMA's but they also are an hour each way in the truck but free to shoot.

What I ran into locally was only a couple of sorry indoor ranges that wanted $15 a day to shoot. One was poorly lighted it was useless and the other started to demand you use only brass cases because his "scrap guy" didn't want to have to sort out the aluminum. So I told him to let his scrap guy pay him $15 to come shoot then because I wouldn't be coming back.

This is when I decided to look for a place in the sticks with a little land so I can shoot. Now I pay a mortgage on my range but it is always open, I spend nothing on gas getting there and the ease with which I can be shooting can not be improved. A full 100m worth of range with silhouette etc. Basically I can shoot off my front porch airguns and my back porch and my long powder burner range is just on the side. Oh and I setup a 15m indoor range for the air rifles, you know in case its raining or cold.

All that plus peace and quiet. I love my range :)

Be careful of ranges that charge a huge joining fee because once you have paid this, they've gotcha. Soon afterwards different assesments might show up year to year on top of the dues and you will feel that you have too much money already invested in the initial payment to walk away. Ask me how I know.

I'd pay $1k/year for an ultimate range, but that would have to be an outstanding facility very close. For that kind of money, I expect a RF bay - and not more than 15 minutes drive.

Right now, I'm paying $125/year at each of two separate clubs. The range nearest to me is closed...and we have no idea when it will reopen. So I'm shooting AP in the living room, and am joining a club 50 miles away. There's a public range 40 miles away, but it's packed with refugees from two clubs in the throes of refitting ranges.

At the risk of derailing a thread I started, I have two short comments that are a bit off-topic.

Bowman26 wrote:What I ran into locally was only a couple of sorry indoor ranges that wanted $15 a day to shoot.

The two indoor ranges closest to me are $16 or $25 *per hour*, not per day. The one that charges $16 doesn't enforce the time limit as long as there are shooting lanes open. The one that charges $25 strictly enforces the time limit; the range officer gives you a 5-minute warning and is then standing right behind you, waiting to escort you out the second your hour expires. That same location has "virtual" ranges and simulators available at $35 and $45 per *half-hour*.

Bowman26 wrote:...started to demand you use only brass cases because his "scrap guy" didn't want to have to sort out the aluminum.

Do you consider this unusual? I've never been to an indoor range that didn't do this.

Now, back to the thread subject: what we're willing to pay to shoot.

Bowman26 wrote:This is when I decided to look for a place...so I can shoot. Now I pay a mortgage...

I'm seriously considering this option. I've recently and unexpectedly retired, so I'm weighing my options for where to live out the remainder of my life.

I could live downtown and build a one-lane range on a commercial plot nearby, live in the sticks and shoot on my own land, try to find a smaller city where there's a good compromise between city amenities and outdoor access, or just stay where I am in the 'burbs and continue to frequent a nearby commercial range that isn't terribly expensive. None of those options is perfect and the better they address my shooting needs, the more they cost.

What do do? Right now, I dunno. Clearly, I'd be willing to spend a great deal of money to have a place to shoot as long as the facilities are perfect for me. In my case, "perfect facilities" means "I own it and I make the rules." That's not going to happen anytime soon.

Sometimes I look with great envy at those housing subdivisions built specifically for flying enthusiasts where the houses are all equipped with hangars and sited next to a centrally-placed runway. I'd love to find something like that for us shooters.

I just joined an outdoor club. Top rated 800 meters range plus a 100 meter range and another 50 meter range. First 4 years are $285 then its $85/yr. You pay $2/day to use. I think that's pretty reasonable compared to Green Fees or the cost to join a hockey team for the winter. Lots of teens do both Golf and Hockey so $$$ is not the issue.

If the same club had an indoor range that I could access anytime I want I would be willing to pay another $100/yr.

Cheers,

BenEnglishTX- I wouldn't consider it unusual for a scrap yard operator to request you only shoot certain cases made of certain metals for free shooting time at the junk yard. But when your business is to cater to gun shooters I think what your scrap guy wants should be second to what your paying customers provide. And no I haven't seen this anywhere else but I haven't been to all that many indoor ranges. The RO you speak of would run me off from that place as well but then I would NEVER pay that kind of hourly fee to go shooting even if I lived in a apartment to begin with.

Bowman26 wrote:The RO you speak of would run me off from that place as well but then I would NEVER pay that kind of hourly fee to go shooting...

I go to the range far too often to pay those rates on a regular basis. I intend to go back to that range a few times a year, though, just to get the incredible facilities they offer. It's perfectly clean and well sound-damped. The firing points are twice as wide as most commercial ranges. The overhead target system is rock-solid and computer-controlled so that I can program any sort of timed drills under various lighting conditions. Each firing point is completely isolated from the next so that any accidental discharge places only the negligent shooter and the RO in any danger. The physical facilities feel like the kind of place a bazillionaire would build in his basement.

Even the ROs are, on balance, a plus. They are, in my experience, perfect in their response to safety issues and otherwise just do a good job of making sure the line runs well, everyone has targets, etc. In fact, the entire staff is impeccably trained, unfailingly professional, consistently friendly, and polite to a fault. The customer service is so much superior to "normal" ranges that you don't mind the RO giving you a time warning and then escorting you out because they're just so darn *nice* about it.

Now, to tie this back to the subject of the thread - Even though that range is a joy to use, I still am not willing to pay $25/hour to use it on a regular basis.

Frankly, I'm not sure I understand their business model. They may not expect the range to make money from walk-in shooters. The fact that the range is limited to 45 feet, the maximum qualification range for a concealed handgun license in my state, strongly suggests that the range may only exist to serve the customers of their training classes. Those classes charge $99 per person and the demand for them seems limitless. As far as I can tell, every CHL class by every instructor at every facility in my state is *always* fully booked a couple of months in advance.

Or, they might be targeting a more upscale demographic. From my visits, it's clear that their regular customers have more money than me. They may have struck a perfect balance between range costs and prices for their target demographic.

Only time will tell how well their business model works; they've only been in operation for about 2 months. My guess is that they'll turn out to be the most profitable (per lane) range in the area.

I was going to mention in my post but forgot that I find some ranges cater more to a higher end clientele of shooters. Kind of like the 2 or 3 gun stores locally that you pay WAY over what you could get it for someplace else in $$. Those places need a place for those people willing to pay those high prices for the guns to shoot them lol. I guess if you are willing to pay 40% or more than you actually have to for a gun, $25 an hour is probably cheap to you.

For $25 an hour they better be providing the guns or the ammo! ;)

Presently I pay just under $200 for unlimited access to a general use 50-100 yard range. I would happily pay much more ($500 to $1000 per year) for a range where I could post my targets at regulation height or even better had some kind of electronic target system and was restricted to smallbore or at least competitive shooters and could be run in a way that was conducive to training for off hand and kneeling as well as prone.

I voted $50 - $500 but I am not comfortable with paying more than $200.
I have two memberships, my hometowns club and the club in the city where I was just until recently living. I pay $28 and $35 respectively. For that I get unlimited access to clubs just focused on Olympic rifle shooting with target carriers for 10m and an electronic 50m and 300m range (or target carriers on 10m & 50m and manual 300m for the other club). At one of the clubs I can even lock up my equipment and it is within a walking distance of 10 min. I don't expect equipment storage and walking distance (or biking) in the average club, but if I am paying $200 that is what I want (+ electronic scoring, 24/7 access, possibility of setting up my Scatt, and the range should of course follow ISSF rules)

I have been on the board in both clubs and know how the economy looks like. If we had members paying $500 we can basically run the whole operation on just 10 paying people. That is in one club, for the other club it is similar but here we make most of our money by renting out parts of the facility to other businesses.
I understand that in the US this wouldn't work at all (I assume?) since the costs are higher and the rules are probably different -that is at least what I get from reading the replies here. One example is if I would draw a circle with radius 10 km around my house I would have around 5 clubs to choose from -a few more if pistol and shotgun are included. And from the replies it sounds like you are lucky if you have 1 club within that distance...
/EJ

EJ wrote:I voted $50 - $500 but I am not comfortable with paying more than $200.
...I pay $28 and $35 respectively. For that I get unlimited access to clubs just focused on Olympic rifle shooting with target carriers for 10m and an electronic 50m and 300m range
...I have been on the board in both clubs and know how the economy looks like. If we had members paying $500 we can basically run the whole operation on just 10 paying people.

If you don't mind, a couple of questions.

The poll is asking about payment *per year*. Are you saying you pay yearly dues equivalent to USD$35 or less for access to a decent 300m rifle range? In what country do you live?

I ask because, where I'm from, a club with room for a 300M range and revenues of just $5000 per year (as in your hypothetical), even if they were given the land, wouldn't be able to afford the ongoing taxes, insurance, and the most basic of maintenance.