I suspect this has been covered before but can't find it.
I have been trying to get serious for several years with slow progress.
Having spent a lot of effort on sight picture(front and backsights, aperture sizes, adjustable irises, prescription lens, contact lens, glasses, dominant eyes, astigmatism) I think I am getting to a point close to maximising my sight picture. Still throwing 3/4" groups at 50yds.
So I decided to see if I could check how much of the error was likely to be attributable to hold, rather than wind, ammunition or sight picture, and put a scope on the rifle.
With a final breathing trace(scope trace, not electronic) wandering like a drunken donkey it immediately became likely that more of the error was down to position/hold/breathing than ammunition/sight picture.
So more things to work on but one thing in particular might need addressing. My final three shallow inhale/exhale trace has a pronounced route from bull centre to 7.30/8 o'clock and back. Ideally, should this be a vertical movement - the deviation indicating an unbalanced position/hold?
TIA.
John
Breathing trace - prone
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Hi John,
You have asked a very good question. One that I asked a fellow recently. The answer I got was due to the tension of the sling and angle of the arms the trace most likely wouldn't be perfectly vertical. I'm not sure what all you have done to tweek your position, but it's very critical to producing shot's that stack on top of each other. As you likely know by know your hold has to be the same shot after shot. I'm know expert, but the fellow that has been providing me with tips here and there told me to use a scope just like your doing for my first year or longer to tweek my position. You get lots of immediate feedback using a scope as it is the only way to see your movement in such a magnified way. I'm still tweeking here and there, but down to very very small changes. First I found the butt-length that was snug, then I finally found the angle that fit my shoulder pocket that produced consistent cant and consistent cheek weld the eliminated muscle movement in my neck, then I found the height of the butt-plate that seemed to be the most comfortable so I could relax my shoulder. I'm still adjusting the cheek-rest in small increments to find where I'm the most comfortable and can relax my head and neck muscles. Getting my eyes lined up down the sights, neck relaxed, shoulder relaxed has been the most difficult for me. Doing all this with a scope has made it easier, but remember once you go back to irons, your head will likely be a little lower so a little more tweeking might be needed. You will learn a lot looking through a scope. Once you feel pretty good with all these fine adjustments, concentrate on follow through and watch for consistent shot recoil. If it recoiling one way then another something is being muscled or your position has changed. Again mastering and having a wicked point of aim can be seen in the scope. When you have it right you should be able to hold on a bullet hole with no problem execute a shot and and know where it went. Know doing that time after time with wind, fatigue, heartbeat, breathing, not breathing, nose itching...well you get the drift, it what it's all about. Fun isn't it!
Hope that helps, just a bit of what I've learned in the past year. Now I hope I have not told you anything wrong. That's a good question thats not really that simple. I hope you have some more feedback.
Good Luck,
Tenring
You have asked a very good question. One that I asked a fellow recently. The answer I got was due to the tension of the sling and angle of the arms the trace most likely wouldn't be perfectly vertical. I'm not sure what all you have done to tweek your position, but it's very critical to producing shot's that stack on top of each other. As you likely know by know your hold has to be the same shot after shot. I'm know expert, but the fellow that has been providing me with tips here and there told me to use a scope just like your doing for my first year or longer to tweek my position. You get lots of immediate feedback using a scope as it is the only way to see your movement in such a magnified way. I'm still tweeking here and there, but down to very very small changes. First I found the butt-length that was snug, then I finally found the angle that fit my shoulder pocket that produced consistent cant and consistent cheek weld the eliminated muscle movement in my neck, then I found the height of the butt-plate that seemed to be the most comfortable so I could relax my shoulder. I'm still adjusting the cheek-rest in small increments to find where I'm the most comfortable and can relax my head and neck muscles. Getting my eyes lined up down the sights, neck relaxed, shoulder relaxed has been the most difficult for me. Doing all this with a scope has made it easier, but remember once you go back to irons, your head will likely be a little lower so a little more tweeking might be needed. You will learn a lot looking through a scope. Once you feel pretty good with all these fine adjustments, concentrate on follow through and watch for consistent shot recoil. If it recoiling one way then another something is being muscled or your position has changed. Again mastering and having a wicked point of aim can be seen in the scope. When you have it right you should be able to hold on a bullet hole with no problem execute a shot and and know where it went. Know doing that time after time with wind, fatigue, heartbeat, breathing, not breathing, nose itching...well you get the drift, it what it's all about. Fun isn't it!
Hope that helps, just a bit of what I've learned in the past year. Now I hope I have not told you anything wrong. That's a good question thats not really that simple. I hope you have some more feedback.
Good Luck,
Tenring
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Telecomtodd
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:15 pm
- Location: Saint Charles, MO
John:
Lots of things could be going on here, but it all breaks down to position. There's a number of variables we don't know -
* Assuming you are using a shooting coat, what kind and how supportive it is.
* What kind of sling you are using and how is it configured on your shooting coat. I've actually seen a shooter try to shoot with a combination of two different slings, and then the sling sat about a half inch up from his elbow - not advantageous. Is it a wide or narrow sling? Leather or synthetic?
* Where are your elbows, knees, and belly. Are you blessed as I am with a sizeable "monopod" belly? Your physique can affect your position and breathing motions during sight alignment.
* How long are you taking to shoot your shot? Are you gasping for air or holding? Back to physique, breathing properly can be difficult with certain body types.
* You mentioned the scope. Are you seeing heartbeat pulses (jumps with your pulse) through the scope? If not, your position may be too loose.
* Are you using a shooting glove? If so, some gloves can actually cause more problems than they solve. Having a glove that can isolate movement is helpful.
If I could see you in position and watch you shoot, it would be a lot easier to figure out what is going on. Can you possibly record yourself and upload to YouTube? I have one of those Kodak handheld HD camcorders that is about the size of a large cellphone - a very helpful tool.
Here's a basic drill you can do with anyone at home. Get into all of your equipment, get into position (no ammo), and have someone reach over, grab the receiver (where the action is) and wiggle it left-right a few times, then forward-backward the same way. If your position is loose, you're going to find what's loose quickly.
Wish you were in NC, I think we could reach your goal with just a little coaching.
Lots of things could be going on here, but it all breaks down to position. There's a number of variables we don't know -
* Assuming you are using a shooting coat, what kind and how supportive it is.
* What kind of sling you are using and how is it configured on your shooting coat. I've actually seen a shooter try to shoot with a combination of two different slings, and then the sling sat about a half inch up from his elbow - not advantageous. Is it a wide or narrow sling? Leather or synthetic?
* Where are your elbows, knees, and belly. Are you blessed as I am with a sizeable "monopod" belly? Your physique can affect your position and breathing motions during sight alignment.
* How long are you taking to shoot your shot? Are you gasping for air or holding? Back to physique, breathing properly can be difficult with certain body types.
* You mentioned the scope. Are you seeing heartbeat pulses (jumps with your pulse) through the scope? If not, your position may be too loose.
* Are you using a shooting glove? If so, some gloves can actually cause more problems than they solve. Having a glove that can isolate movement is helpful.
If I could see you in position and watch you shoot, it would be a lot easier to figure out what is going on. Can you possibly record yourself and upload to YouTube? I have one of those Kodak handheld HD camcorders that is about the size of a large cellphone - a very helpful tool.
Here's a basic drill you can do with anyone at home. Get into all of your equipment, get into position (no ammo), and have someone reach over, grab the receiver (where the action is) and wiggle it left-right a few times, then forward-backward the same way. If your position is loose, you're going to find what's loose quickly.
Wish you were in NC, I think we could reach your goal with just a little coaching.
OK the gun should move down and up on breathing / exhaling. It should move as close to vertically as possible but a small deviation is fine. So from 6.30 - 7 is OK, any more and I would suggest you have some uneven tension somewhere. You really though would need to do this with an electronic trainer to see what the traces actually look like and how consistent they are. So a consistent 7 or even 8 O-clock, is better than a trace that comes in from different places.
Also look for your recoil, does that always go in the same direction ?
Rob.
Also look for your recoil, does that always go in the same direction ?
Rob.
Todd
*Coat - Kustermann! canvas - nice tight fit
*Sling - Anschutz butchered with adjustable central link - I think it is ok and it sits high on the upper arm - not previously troubled by pulse - having tightened up the sling about 3/4" indications of a pulse started to show
*Too big belly but developed position with help of 'Ways of Rifle' - most certainly room for improvement by refinement
*Shot - fairly fast by comparison with others around me - say 6 - 10 seconds from initial on bull to shot - plus for follow through
*Shooting glove - too big mitt, pulls down between the fingers and is painful -a new one needed soonest
*Couldn't post on You-tube - even if I knew how - too much ammunition for grandsons and others - my reputation for micky-taking wouldn't survive it
*Will get someone to push/pull for loose hold
Rob
*Don't have access to electronic trainer but the scope gives a pretty useful picture at present. Experimentation yesterday shewed a fairly consistent last three breaths trace albeit sloping to 8o'clock. Transferring more weight from left elbow to right seemed to move the trace more vertical.
Thanks for all the advice - I am sure this is an exercise that will run for some time trying slight adjustments bit-by-bit. Apart from the glove and trying to equalise weight distribution my main aim will be to produce a smooth three breath trace by eradicating/reducing erratic tremor.
Any comments welcomed and I will come back on this from time to time
Thanks
John
*Coat - Kustermann! canvas - nice tight fit
*Sling - Anschutz butchered with adjustable central link - I think it is ok and it sits high on the upper arm - not previously troubled by pulse - having tightened up the sling about 3/4" indications of a pulse started to show
*Too big belly but developed position with help of 'Ways of Rifle' - most certainly room for improvement by refinement
*Shot - fairly fast by comparison with others around me - say 6 - 10 seconds from initial on bull to shot - plus for follow through
*Shooting glove - too big mitt, pulls down between the fingers and is painful -a new one needed soonest
*Couldn't post on You-tube - even if I knew how - too much ammunition for grandsons and others - my reputation for micky-taking wouldn't survive it
*Will get someone to push/pull for loose hold
Rob
*Don't have access to electronic trainer but the scope gives a pretty useful picture at present. Experimentation yesterday shewed a fairly consistent last three breaths trace albeit sloping to 8o'clock. Transferring more weight from left elbow to right seemed to move the trace more vertical.
Thanks for all the advice - I am sure this is an exercise that will run for some time trying slight adjustments bit-by-bit. Apart from the glove and trying to equalise weight distribution my main aim will be to produce a smooth three breath trace by eradicating/reducing erratic tremor.
Any comments welcomed and I will come back on this from time to time
Thanks
John
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tenpointnine
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:20 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
cheekpiece / sights
"Getting my eyes lined up down the sights, neck relaxed, shoulder relaxed has been the most difficult for me. "
Try doing things in reverse. If you can shoot at a shorter range, say 25 yards, try removing the rear sight and shooting without it. Relax your neck and shoulder muscles and let your head rest on the stock / cheekpiece and try a couple of shots. Note where the shots go then adjust your cheekpiece the way you would have adjusted your sights (up or down, left or right) then try another couple of shots.
Whilst you may not hit many 10.9s, you should eventually be able to get the shots somewhere in the middle of the target.
Now put your rearsight back on and you are good to go.
Try it and surprise yourself!
Good luck
Walter in England
Try doing things in reverse. If you can shoot at a shorter range, say 25 yards, try removing the rear sight and shooting without it. Relax your neck and shoulder muscles and let your head rest on the stock / cheekpiece and try a couple of shots. Note where the shots go then adjust your cheekpiece the way you would have adjusted your sights (up or down, left or right) then try another couple of shots.
Whilst you may not hit many 10.9s, you should eventually be able to get the shots somewhere in the middle of the target.
Now put your rearsight back on and you are good to go.
Try it and surprise yourself!
Good luck
Walter in England