TargetTalk

I am learning to shoot prone, and starting this spring I use SCATT.

Looking on my hold (in SCATT - "L" - length of the trajectory) - how to decrease it?

Before I didn't have the jacket - so I used old winter coat. Started with L 80-90mm and in a few months I was getting 50-60mm.
The scores where around 95-97, the position was quite enjoyable and stable, but getting moderately painful after time.

Now I've got Kurt Thune prone jacket, MEC sling and handstop. L immediately increased 60-70-80mm, have all kinds of discomfort - shoulder gets painful (sling is pulling it out of the socket?), sling either pinch the forearm if I put it low on the wrist, or palm numbs immediately if I put it high (as discussed here: http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?p=136641#136641), pulse, etc, etc.
The whole process is less enjoyable, but generally I could stay in the position longer, and the good thing that scores went up - 98-100.

So I assume I have the position problem?
Before I definitely saw the connection with the mental/physical state - when well prepared, relaxed and "in the mood" - that greatly reduces the length (my best was 41.8mm), but currently that doesn't really help..

Also it seems to me that the eye is too far from the rear sight (8-10cm), but at the same time buttstock has very weak contact with the shoulder and moves easily.

If anyone could suggest what to try to change/adjust?
I've put photos here: http://www.dianaserver.net/rasnoe/shooting/position1
I done have a coach, and it's a big problem here - even National team shooters have problems getting a coach. So so far my options seems limited with Internet and self-training with mirror..

Looking at the photos, my first thought was that your left hand is just about under the front part of the action - which seems a little TOO far back for my tastes. This leads to a lot of the weight being taken by the left hand with all the associated pain.

If you were to move your handstop slightly forward you would get better contact with the butt in the shoulder, slightly less weight on the left hand and it might narrow the distance to the rearsight too.

That's my initial reaction anyway.

Regards,
Ken.

Ken,

My first thought is that your body is very straight behind the rifle, probably too straight. As a result your left hand does not reach very far, which makes it harder to balance the rifle, as most of the barrel is in front of the pivot point (your hand).

I think you need to move the handstop (and where your place your left hand) further forwards by 1 or 2 inches, to improve the balance. Don't make the sling longer, as this will lower your position. In the photos your position is legal (forearm is over 30 degrees), but I don't think lower would be good.

Instead it would be better to rotate your body to the left to make your position wider, to accomodate the increased distance between handstop and butt.

Second, the rearsight, yes, you have quite a large eye relief. This is due to your very staright position. A wider body position would move your head nearer to the rearsight. In addition you could experiment with moving the rearsight back. You may then need to readjust the aperture size.

Third, if the butt is loose in your shoulder, there could be several causes, some of which are:

1) It's too short - looking at the photos I'm not sure about this, it looks OK
2) The handstop-butt distance is too small - more likely, as the rifle would sag forwards against the sling.
3) The sling is too long - much the same as No 2.
4) The jacket is slipping over the shoulder, so the sling effectively lengthens over time - this should be less likely with a jacket that fits well. Yours does appear to be pulling to the left. You could try moving the buttons to optimise the fit around your chest.
5) The bicep cuff of your sling may be loose, so the weight of the rifle is pulling it from an O shape into a 0 (i.e. thinner and longer), which would make the butt loose in your shoulder. I'm sure there is someone on the forum with more experience of the MEC sling who can comment further.

Hope this helps

Tim

You're very hunched up, propped up on your right elbow. This will pull your right shoulder back.

Try touching your right hand to your left fingers (with your elbow off the ground), then keeping your elbow off the ground take hold of the handgrip, then let your elbow fall naturally to where it wants to be.

If your right elbow was further round and forward, you should get a better shoulder contact.

Not too easy to see from the photos, but I felt that the right wrist/arm and hand position might need some tweaking.

The line of the right forearm and wrist should be a straight line, i.e. no bending of the wrist in any plane. Hand position and butt length are factors that should be considered. Alteration of butt length will also affect the angle to the rifle and consequently left hand position on the stock. Nothing is ever simple!

Hand position could also be an issue in itself as your trigger finger appears to be approaching the trigger from above. Ideally it should be horizontal. However solving the wrist/arm issue (If I have observed correctly) might also go some way to getting the trigger finger correct.

A lot of good points have been raised and useful observations made but whatever you do now, do it slowly and methodically.

Keep a record of what you alter.
Only change one thing at a time.
Note the effect of the change.
Evaluate any change in performance as a result.
Decide whether to continue with it or discard it.
Again, keep a record.

Hope that this helps.

Rutty

KennyB, Tim S - thanks for your advises.

I've moved handstop forward 5 cm (not changing the sling length) - and it really makes huge difference! Much less weight and therefore stress on the whole left hand (shoulder, wrist and palm), general position is much more stable and comfortable.
Also rotating the body helped as well - now much closer to the sight and better contact with buttstock.
Quickly shot 10 rounds - got group size 9.7mm - this is my personal best.

About sling and sling position - I've tightened the cuff (to make it more O than 0 shape) - and have noticed some pressure in the arm and the pulse from the bicep. And the shape is still slightly 0.
I'll try the MEC attachment which locks connector to pull more from outside, but how tight it should be? If I tight it up to be round - then it will squeeze like blood pressure monitor...
Also, should I move the cuff higher (or lower)? Looking at my photo - it is in the middle of the arm - exactly where it should not be.

The jacket - yes, I can feel the shoulder is slightly slipping from it when in position it is being pulled by the sling.
The jacket size seems right - I can barely touch elbows. I'll try to play more with jacket - move top buttons tighter, loosen right shoulder straps.
If I move the buttons to remove all (or most) the extra material - then jacket would be like moulded and would not move, but that would not be allowed by "7.4.7.2: jacket must hang loosely on the wearer... must be capable of being overlapped beyond the normal closure by at least 70 mm"?

Nester,

I'm glad the advice helped. I had much the same done to me a few years ago.

I won't comment on the sling, as I don't use the MEC. I think you need advice from someone who does.

As for the jacket, you should not be able to touch your elbows together, even barely. Ideally you should have a gap of several inches. Not being able to close your elbows past shoulder width may be a bit tight.

Tim

skylark, Rutty - thanks too - yes, I see the problem with the right arm.
Looks like this happens because I was laying straight behind the rifle. Rotating the body apparently helps to add more space for the right arm so it can go naturally without bending wrist.

Will try to move sling cuff higher - on photos from Ways of the Rifle it usually looks much higher..

Jacket - yes, I cannot touch elbows together - it's about 5-7 cm between them. I just assumed that if pushed really hard on exhale - I might be able to touch them...
So it looks like I put improper pressure on the left part of my body - that makes shoulder to move inside the jacket.