Hi,
Well now that I have a thread started on the standard pistol what advice can I get from you all on a Free Pistol
TOZ, Hammerli 160/162e, Pardini PGP 75, Morini CM84e?
Your thoughts, I am leaning toward the TOZ but the Hammerli and CM84e are tempting.
Advice, thoughts?
Free Pistol, More Choices
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Buy them all!
More pistols more opportunities! :))
Do you need advice how to select, a car, a house, a book, a hammer, a screwdriver too?
More pistols more opportunities! :))
Do you need advice how to select, a car, a house, a book, a hammer, a screwdriver too?
Last edited by Russ on Sun May 15, 2011 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DukeShooter
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:13 pm
The weighted pros and cons are purely examples :
"pros and cons weighted decision-making template - example
This example weighs the pros and cons of buying a new car(FREE PISTOL),or to replace an old car (FREE PISTOL).
The weighted pros and cons are purely examples - they are not in any way suggestions of how you should make such a decision. Our decision-making criteria depend on our own personal situations and preferences. And your criteria and weighting will change according to time, situation, and probably your mood too.
Use whatever scoring method you want to. The example shows low scores but you can score each item up to 10, or 20 or 100 - whatever makes sense to you personally. Or you can use an 'A/B/C' or three-star scoring method, whatever works for you."
http://www.businessballs.com/problemsolving.htm
This example weighs the pros and cons of buying a new car(FREE PISTOL),or to replace an old car (FREE PISTOL).
The weighted pros and cons are purely examples - they are not in any way suggestions of how you should make such a decision. Our decision-making criteria depend on our own personal situations and preferences. And your criteria and weighting will change according to time, situation, and probably your mood too.
Use whatever scoring method you want to. The example shows low scores but you can score each item up to 10, or 20 or 100 - whatever makes sense to you personally. Or you can use an 'A/B/C' or three-star scoring method, whatever works for you."
http://www.businessballs.com/problemsolving.htm
Without the BS, the Morini is current production and the TOZ is the best value in my opinion. The Hammerli is hard to get service for as well as the Pardini. I have shot them all and find the TOZ the most shooter friendly .
I think you asked a simple enough question, sorry you had to endure Russ, he's the resident troll.
I think you asked a simple enough question, sorry you had to endure Russ, he's the resident troll.
Russ says "buy them all", but I say TRY them all, and then pick one that's works for you. They are all different.
My thoughts on your list are:
TOZ - lots of parts about, grips that fit (you will need an after market grip-Morini or custom), and they cheap to buy and work very well, and are forgiving in the hand of a beginner over other FP's. My choice.
Hammerli 160/162e - well made and effective, but I have a problem with the extreme rake angle of the grip- for long periods of shooting, it would kill my wrist and arm so I can't use one of these FP's.
Pardini PGP 75-if you get a good offer on one, it's probably going to do you proud.
Morini CM84e-the most expensive, but the most effective and commonly used FP - it is popular and the choice of many willing to pay to get a top pistol. You will need a large safe to store it.
Hope this helps
Popeye
My thoughts on your list are:
TOZ - lots of parts about, grips that fit (you will need an after market grip-Morini or custom), and they cheap to buy and work very well, and are forgiving in the hand of a beginner over other FP's. My choice.
Hammerli 160/162e - well made and effective, but I have a problem with the extreme rake angle of the grip- for long periods of shooting, it would kill my wrist and arm so I can't use one of these FP's.
Pardini PGP 75-if you get a good offer on one, it's probably going to do you proud.
Morini CM84e-the most expensive, but the most effective and commonly used FP - it is popular and the choice of many willing to pay to get a top pistol. You will need a large safe to store it.
Hope this helps
Popeye
Dear Greg Derr,Greg Derr wrote:Without the BS, the Morini is current production and the TOZ is the best value in my opinion. The Hammerli is hard to get service for as well as the Pardini. I have shot them all and find the TOZ the most shooter friendly .
I think you asked a simple enough question, sorry you had to endure Russ, he's the resident troll.
Please make an effort to keep up trying to “Not Discriminate” someone who is helping others to make a life changing recommendation about how to make the right decision in the nearest 50 years.
You can use this strategy too. It is free source. ;)
I like your writing style. Can you tell me what school you graduated from as a publicist? I will take this school out of my list. ;)
I am out shopping to improve my grammar.
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DukeShooter
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:13 pm
Well obviously I don't expect to be punished for being less than knowledgable concerning a shooting discipline I have little experience with. However I am not a shooting novice and do expect not to be made fun of because I ask for opinions concerning equipment. I asked so that I can get something to help me make a good start.
Russ, obviously your comments are more about being an expert than actually offering actual or anecdotal information that I could possibly find useful. I'll remember not to ask you for any opinions when I trade in my truck or get new tools either because it sounded like you want me to understand that I am wasting your time with a question.
So from now on I'll , Make sure I do my research elsewhere so I don't bother Russ.
The Duke
Russ, obviously your comments are more about being an expert than actually offering actual or anecdotal information that I could possibly find useful. I'll remember not to ask you for any opinions when I trade in my truck or get new tools either because it sounded like you want me to understand that I am wasting your time with a question.
So from now on I'll , Make sure I do my research elsewhere so I don't bother Russ.
The Duke
weighted decision-making template did you read this informat
Do not make it personal.
You have great informational help form Popeye.
At the same time your initial question sounds controversial.
weighted decision-making template
my criteria:
Price
Grip
Custom grip price
Reliability
Electronic trigger
Mechanical trigger
"WEIGHTED DECISION-MAKING GRID
List what you need (or want) in your career on the left side. Some examples are: Work
with children, make a good salary, normal work hours etc. Think very carefully about
what is important to you in your career and in your life. In the second column, assign a
weight to each need that shows how important it is to you. Use the following scale:
1 = slightly important
2 = important
3 = extremely important
List the occupations you are considering across the top. Rate each occupation on how
well it meets each need according to the following scale:
1 = need is not met
2 = need is partially met
3 = need is perfectly met
Record the ratings in the top half of each box. Multiply each rating by the
corresponding weight for that need. Record this number in the bottom half of each box.
Add the numbers in bottom half of each box down the columns. Which occupation is
rated the highest? Does this surprise you? Do you want to change any ratings or
weights?
Sometimes its helpful to do this activity with a partner - have them total your results and
read them to you. The choice that meets your needs the best might truly surprise you!"
http://downloads.salem.edu/careers/decision_tool.pdf
Advice about what?
"Thoughts" …. If you do not like my thoughts, do not ask about them. :(
Making a correct decision is just common-sense, when you have the data and ability to create right question!
You have great informational help form Popeye.
At the same time your initial question sounds controversial.
weighted decision-making template did you read this information?"Well now that I have a thread started on the standard pistol what advice can I get from you all on a Free Pistol
TOZ, Hammerli 160/162e, Pardini PGP 75, Morini CM84e?
Your thoughts, I am leaning toward the TOZ but the Hammerli and CM84e are tempting.
Advice, thoughts?"
weighted decision-making template
my criteria:
Price
Grip
Custom grip price
Reliability
Electronic trigger
Mechanical trigger
"WEIGHTED DECISION-MAKING GRID
List what you need (or want) in your career on the left side. Some examples are: Work
with children, make a good salary, normal work hours etc. Think very carefully about
what is important to you in your career and in your life. In the second column, assign a
weight to each need that shows how important it is to you. Use the following scale:
1 = slightly important
2 = important
3 = extremely important
List the occupations you are considering across the top. Rate each occupation on how
well it meets each need according to the following scale:
1 = need is not met
2 = need is partially met
3 = need is perfectly met
Record the ratings in the top half of each box. Multiply each rating by the
corresponding weight for that need. Record this number in the bottom half of each box.
Add the numbers in bottom half of each box down the columns. Which occupation is
rated the highest? Does this surprise you? Do you want to change any ratings or
weights?
Sometimes its helpful to do this activity with a partner - have them total your results and
read them to you. The choice that meets your needs the best might truly surprise you!"
http://downloads.salem.edu/careers/decision_tool.pdf
Advice about what?
"Thoughts" …. If you do not like my thoughts, do not ask about them. :(
Making a correct decision is just common-sense, when you have the data and ability to create right question!
Last edited by Russ on Mon May 16, 2011 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
At the World cups the top two are the Morini and the Toz, making up 80-90 % of pistols on the line.
The Toz is a good pistol but not in current production and is now hard to find in good condition and even harder still to find complete with its spares box. Spare parts are getting very hard to find and you have to make some springs now to repair them.
The Morini is in current production with all parts available.
The Toz is a good pistol but not in current production and is now hard to find in good condition and even harder still to find complete with its spares box. Spare parts are getting very hard to find and you have to make some springs now to repair them.
The Morini is in current production with all parts available.
David M. brings up a good point. If you look at the World Championships, the breakdown is running around 60% Morini, 30% Toz, and all others combined about 10%.
Which means that you can probably eliminate everything but the Morini and Toz from consideration.
Beyond that, it's really a matter of what you are looking for. The Toz is usually recommended to novices, as it is considered a more forgiving gun. It's got a reputation for turning 7s into 8s.
On the other hand, the Morini's long sight radius rewards fine motor control more. It turns 8s into 9s.
Me? I've got one of each. But the Morini is the starter, the Toz a backup gun.
Which means that you can probably eliminate everything but the Morini and Toz from consideration.
Beyond that, it's really a matter of what you are looking for. The Toz is usually recommended to novices, as it is considered a more forgiving gun. It's got a reputation for turning 7s into 8s.
On the other hand, the Morini's long sight radius rewards fine motor control more. It turns 8s into 9s.
Me? I've got one of each. But the Morini is the starter, the Toz a backup gun.
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
How short are your fingers?
If they are short and unless you like shooting with a sideways trigger angle then beware of the Toz.
I started with a Toz - pimped out with all the extras but to be honest as nice as it was the trigger did not suit me - my fingers are short and with the medium rink fitted I could not get the trigger position I wanted without further modification. Sights were not great either.
I now use a CM84E (Longarm version so I can shoot in UK mainland) and it is incredible after shooting a Toz. I managed to fit a Blow-Out compensator (still available from Interprodukter) which also allows a good amount of front sight position adjustment (sight radius) from longer or shorter then standard so if you like you can set to same as your AP if feels more comfortable. The sights are more adjustable (width, depth) and I think give a nicer sight picture. Ultimately price will come in to the equation - Morini £1000 - Toz £250 (4 Toz for the price of 1 CM84E).
For me Toz is a Ford and Morini is a BMW if we talking cars!
If they are short and unless you like shooting with a sideways trigger angle then beware of the Toz.
I started with a Toz - pimped out with all the extras but to be honest as nice as it was the trigger did not suit me - my fingers are short and with the medium rink fitted I could not get the trigger position I wanted without further modification. Sights were not great either.
I now use a CM84E (Longarm version so I can shoot in UK mainland) and it is incredible after shooting a Toz. I managed to fit a Blow-Out compensator (still available from Interprodukter) which also allows a good amount of front sight position adjustment (sight radius) from longer or shorter then standard so if you like you can set to same as your AP if feels more comfortable. The sights are more adjustable (width, depth) and I think give a nicer sight picture. Ultimately price will come in to the equation - Morini £1000 - Toz £250 (4 Toz for the price of 1 CM84E).
For me Toz is a Ford and Morini is a BMW if we talking cars!
A valid point. Right now, used Toz-35s are available at reasonable prices...but there really isn't anything I can think of being made for the mid-grade shooter.Russ wrote:Do we have to treat every purchasing question as a ISSF World Championship hope?
How about hobby shooters? Who will care about those nice people?
You see the same thing with AP. There are the plinkers at one end, the Steyrs and Morinis at the other...and the only gun in between is the Izh-46. If you can find one.
Free Pistol Choices
I agree with the Toz comments about finger length and an after market grip. If you find a Toz with an original grip you will spend a lot of time removing wood unless your hands are huge. The Morini large on my LP10 fits just right. But the Rink large I got for the Toz makes me stretch.
For what its worth, I shot free pistol this past weekend. Four competitors - 2 Toz, 1 Morini and 1 Hammerli. Toz finished 1st (558) (former olympian) and last (325)(me). The other 2 were about equal at just over 500.
The winner is just getting back into shooting after over a 10 year layoff. He said shot Hammerli and others during his competion days, but he selected a Toz to get back into shooting.
For what its worth, I shot free pistol this past weekend. Four competitors - 2 Toz, 1 Morini and 1 Hammerli. Toz finished 1st (558) (former olympian) and last (325)(me). The other 2 were about equal at just over 500.
The winner is just getting back into shooting after over a 10 year layoff. He said shot Hammerli and others during his competion days, but he selected a Toz to get back into shooting.