TargetTalk

In response to a few PM's. I speak in plane language and as honestly as I can with the straight dope.

This is intended to help all levels, I don't discriminate based on your goals.

As I see it "Hold" is a lot more complex than most of us ever thought. I believe hold or "steadiness" is intertwined with four areas, or hold is the result of these four factors. I will take them on one at a time, they are all equally important.

Pistol Weight: Most shooters when they start out make pistol selection based on many factor, but usually not weight. This can be a mistake. For instance if pistol is too heavy it will cause early fatigue of the arm while on point, too light and the pistol will never settle to an aiming area.

How do you chose. 25 years ago there was very little choice on a very small market for air pistols. You had the FWB Model 2 or the Walther CP 2
(I will talk about pneumatics later on)

Both manufactures offered either full size or junior sized pistols. Today there are at least six top shelf air pistols on the market in a number of different configurations from each manufacturer. Most makers also offer add on weights.

First to find a starting off point for pistol weight, be honest with yourself. If you are a 15 year old boy starting out, buy a junior pistol. If you are 65 years old and getting tired, buy a smaller sized pistol. There is no dishonor in using a shorter length and lighter weight pistol. If the smaller sized pistol is too light and the full sized too heavy- use the short cylinder on a full sized pistol. How do I know what weight to get?

Good question. Try this, with the pistol unloaded hold it by the cylinder and barrel end and point the grip end toward a wall. You should be able to hold it reasonably steady for 8-10 seconds. It's not an exact science, but the weight is the same, just more nose heavy. This simulates pure weight/balance without grip support.

As you develop a better hold and physical strength you can add weight if desired. Too light a pistol will tend to flutter and never settle.

For fine tuning of weight and balance try using lead solder wire wrapped around the barrel or self stick wheel weights from the auto supply. This is good since you can add/subtract weight as needed.

As for the short cylinders and long barrels, I shot this set up for a few years and found it to work well before alloy frames and cylinders came along.

A note on pneumatic air pistols. I don't advocate them for a few reasons. First they require too much body and grip movement to cock as well as energy. With the flip of one finger you can cock a PCP air pistol and not lose hand position on the grip as well as body position.

So picking the right weight pistol will help hold. Better hold will help performance.

Next segment: Grip(hand pressure)

Have fun. PM's welcome if you are shy.

Our host thought this post was worth keeping alive so let's continue the discussion.

Grip: How hard to or loose to hold is troubling for many. Too loose a hold and the pistol can twist in your hand making inconsistent shots. Too tight and trigger control suffers as well as muscle pain over the time of the match. I have found there that a firm hand with as much even contact on the grip, except the trigger finger is best. Now how much?
(I will assume that you have a properly fit grip at this point)

I use this method: Pointing the empty pistol at a blank wall, take aim. Slowly apply hand pressure harder. At a point the pistol will start to shake from the pressure, at this point start to loosen the pressure. At the point that the pistol become steady while aiming, this should be your grip. Not too firm, but firm enough to control the movement of the pistol.
( This is not based on anything, by my experience over twenty year, but we all need a starting point, this is mine.)

Another point with having as much contact as possible is that the pistol becomes an extension of the arm and thus more in tune with your body rigidity and a full contact grip is a consistent grip. And consistency is key to precision match shooting.

Hi Greg,

I had stopped worrying about the grip till I felt the desire to adjust the palm shelf a little higher on my LP 10. After this i filed a little of the wood over the Y of the thumb and the forefinger.
Now the pistol sits snug in my hand and a little pressure from my hand is enough to shoot comfortably. Earlier I used a lower palm shelf,with enough space for a thin screwdriver to pass freely between the edge of the hand and the palm shelf. This was as per the advice of one of our world class shooters who said that one should hold the pistol and not vise versa.
The only problem that I encountered with the second method was that over the course of a match my grip would change and become tight. This would then start affecting the trigger action.

I am still trying out the better fitted grip and experimenting with a lighter hold, I would like to know your take on this.

Regards,

Dev

Whilst grip pressure does vary depending on what you're shooting a general rule of thumb is with the same force as you hold a young childs hand, or how firm you can hold a chickens egg.

With regards the palm shelf, it should be in contact with the hand, with enough pressure to feel supporting, but not such that it squeezes the hand (this then forces the palm off the grip).

Rob.

Hi Greg,

Good post.

1 thing I would add when you are referring to the pistol weight is the balance of the pistol.

This refers to whether the pistol is nose heavy or rear heavy. They each have a significant impact on how steady you can hold the pistol.

Also a more nose heavy pistol will allow for a tighter grip as it does not shake as much under pressure, whereas a rear heavy pistol allows for the shooter to hold longer in the aiming area.

Good luck

I have a Feinwerkbau P44 and have just discovered that the barrel can be removed with just 2 cap screws. You mentioned the use of long barrel and short cylinders but what about the reverse - fitting a short (kurz) barrel with long cylinders - shorter sight radius but larger air capacity. Is there any benefits?

Try everything. Better to try it than not,it could be the key to better scores.

I am curious about your experience and opinion regarding variable grip pressure between the individual fingers. I have encountered a number of articles by various shooters/coaches stating quite wide-ranging opinions on this, from the 'pinky hold' where the little finger grip is tightest, to a middle fingers hold where the middle and ring fingers do most of the gripping while the pinky is almost free and the trigger finger does not grip at all... to the whole-hand grip where every digit including the base of the trigger finger and the thumb play a more or less even role in gripping the pistol. Of course the majority seem to advocate a relaxed thumb, I think it was only one book suggesting a modest grip up to the middle joint of the thumb with the thumb tip not in contact.

I have experimented with each of these, with variations, and have not yet settled upon any one method being still in the experimental phase as I'm just beginning my fifth month shooting 10m AP, with no previous formal pistol experience. It seems my better groups are coming with the middle fingers hold, but there are days when it seems the pinky joining equally can contribute to steadiness. Holding primarily with the middle finger as some advocate seems to allow more shots to go 2 rings high due to the recoil of the 46m.

Of course I appreciate your logic with avoiding pneumatic pistols, but this is what I have (and have started making a new grip for this week, having established a good, evenly supportive shape on the Baikal grip using several applications of putty and much carving) and what I prefer. I confess to something of a bias against dependency on bicycle pumps and scuba tanks. Just not my taste. My experience so far with underlevers (my previous pistol until the middle of April was a Gamo Center) is that with moderate weight training and running, and by taking adequate breaks between shots (30 to 40 seconds spent in breathing, calming my thoughts, resting the arm), the extra effort spent cocking the pistol is not unduly crippling. By cocking the pistol immediately after follow-through of the shot, this gives over half a minute for muscle recovery from that modest effort. The 46m is really quite an easy pistol to cock. But of course I am not arguing against your reasoning; had I not this irrational bias against PCP style setups I'd no doubt have purchased one of those for the exact reasons you outlined.

Greg Derr wrote:Our host thought this post was worth keeping alive so let's continue the discussion.

Grip: How hard to or loose to hold is troubling for many. Too loose a hold and the pistol can twist in your hand making inconsistent shots. Too tight and trigger control suffers as well as muscle pain over the time of the match. I have found there that a firm hand with as much even contact on the grip, except the trigger finger is best. Now how much?
(I will assume that you have a properly fit grip at this point)

I use this method: Pointing the empty pistol at a blank wall, take aim. Slowly apply hand pressure harder. At a point the pistol will start to shake from the pressure, at this point start to loosen the pressure. At the point that the pistol become steady while aiming, this should be your grip. Not too firm, but firm enough to control the movement of the pistol.
( This is not based on anything, by my experience over twenty year, but we all need a starting point, this is mine.)

Another point with having as much contact as possible is that the pistol becomes an extension of the arm and thus more in tune with your body rigidity and a full contact grip is a consistent grip. And consistency is key to precision match shooting.

In a dryfire mode I can see the alignment and steadiness and placement in aim area develop as I gently increase the grip pressure. I do not over tighten and then release. I use a definite press forward on the back of the grip. I am working on incorporating this as part of the final settle while the trigger is moving. So far, quite good.

I'm very happy to see that I'm not alone with my grip that's not quite as light as so many seem to suggest. I'm not shooting air pistol (will be, I promise!), but much of the advice goes towards rather loose hold on STP and CF as well. Anyway, I find it easiest to find a repeatable position with all fingers holding equally and also my thumb joint clearly pressing sideways against the grip, no appreciable pressure downwards against the thumbrest. The pistol is Unique DES 69 with a grip that is slightly big for me, if that has anything to do with this. I'm not really willing to start carving and filling it, as I'm going to get either a Pardini or an MG because of the rake angle. I found I shoot significantly better with a grip that's not as upright as the Unique's. Not that I would ever outshoot that gun, either, but this seems to be an easy step to take and also make shooting a bit more enjoyable.

I guess the thumb pressure has much more to do with making sure the hold is repeatable than actually holding the gun. That's the place on the pistol grip that I can clearly feel being "just right" or not. The second place is the palm rest, which may be a bit more problematic. I have found I shoot better with the rest firmly against the edge of my palm. I have heard much advice against this, though. My groups are significantly tighter with the rest set up tight, but on the other hand, the average point of impact shifts more from day to day. With rather loose setting, the shots land – on average - closer to ten, but spread more.

Mika

mika wrote:My groups are significantly tighter with the rest set up tight, but on the other hand, the average point of impact shifts more from day to day. With rather loose setting, the shots land – on average - closer to ten, but spread more.

That is an interesting point. Of course perspective on this 'spread vs. tight groups with the odd stray' sort of theme depending upon one's level of expertise. As a novice shooter, I find myself continually doing battle with my desire to control each and every shot. My experience of those shots where I 'let go' of this temptation and just focus on the front sight and sight alignment is that the pellets strike in an evenly scattered pattern with the outermost shots at about 9.5. But being still new to this automated fashion of drawing the trigger while focusing on sights, when I 'forget' or just get stubborn and choose to 'grab' the trigger when the sights look right, I frequently hit 4 or 5 averaging at 10.2 or so, nice and tight... then the rest of the shots can jump out as far as a 7.5, even the odd 7.0. So the statistical experience dictates letting go, simply following the routine of watching sights, focusing on sights, thinking about sights, as is so commonly coached, and beginning trigger draw slowly as the sight picture develops into something close enough to merit commitment.

My feeling is that I do not, so far, commit to this method full-time because of the weariness factor. I struggle a bit with bringing the sights high enough. It can take several seconds to bring them from about low 4 to low 6, which seems to be the area where I get my best results. These seconds eat up my energy, and shakes start coming in around 5 seconds, sometimes even spasms where the pistol can jump quite wildly for part of a second then settle again. Trying to 'beat' this time limit motivates me to rush the trigger, to grab what I can. And this pays off, as I said, almost half the time... so temptation remains strong.

I suppose it comes down to more training and practice. My scores do keep going up, a couple to a few points per week, so no real worries. But it would be good to find a means of sticking to one methodology with better discipline, at least long enough to find out how much farther it might take me. The palm shelf itself does not play such a strong role in my experience, rather it's consistency in the fore-aft grip in preference to an overall squeeze. Focus on pulling fingers and the rear of the palm towards eachother in perfect alignment with the barrel seems to offer much greater consistency, bringing all shots within 2 rings side to side... but it also tends to increase my vertical spread by about 2 rings. So again, practice should help to discover compromises which balance these factors.

Gerard: I use a firm, all fingers the same pressure approach(less the trigger finger) I think that if you have to "think" too much about the grip, that it takes away from the task of sight alignment and trigger control. I do see though at you stage of development how this happens, it did with me. When you find your "right" grip, it should become second nature and allow more focus on SA/TC. Also my feeling on pnumatics are just in relationship to movement of the shooting position and grip. Work with what you have.

Mika: I concure, the one thing I would add is this. The heavier a trigger weight, the firmer my grip. The reason for this is that the trigger finger which really can not work 100% independently of the the whole hand need to put on more trigger pressure.

For example, when I shoot a FP with a 40gr or lighter trigger, i need a great deal of sensativity so my hold is looser to allow my finger to move more fluidly. You can see how you trigger finger works and related to the other fingers visually; make half a fist, closing your hand halfway. With the trigger finger extented, move it like you are pulling a trigger. Do you see the other fingers move? They do. All the finger tendons tie into a larger tendon in the forearm through the carpal tunnel. With the FP I can offset this loose grip and loss of grip position via a form fitting grip. Not so much in AP, put I am holding harder sine I am pushing 500 grams of trigger pressure.

Now in .45 hardball I could never get good trigger control with a light grip( not taking into account recoil) because the trigger weight is 4 pounds.

Jack H; The exercise to establish a "baseline" for grip pressure. Not a training program.

I wish John Bickar would chime in on CF/STD/RF with some of his views, he is very good and might have another perspective.

One other note- take notes and try things for a lot longer than a single training session if you can. Gerard: you should not be focusing on shot value to the point that you are- yet.

Thanks a lot Greg. Solid advice, I will give a thoroughly even grip a proper try, say a month or so then re-assess. Such efforts take some discipline as there are so many seemingly contradictory recommendations floating around, but discipline is what this sport is all about.

As for not shooting for points... I know. And I do shoot quite a few targets where I just unload dozens of pellets into a single piece of paper, limiting attention to 'score' to the size of the hole in the middle resulting once I've finished the session. And I shoot on blank paper at times, though it's a bit frustrating. And dry fire is at last, with this new-to-me 46m, becoming part of my daily routine. But the temptation to shoot for score, for our CAF postal match and just to track progress, is rather significant. I will try to keep that to a smaller component of my weekly routine, thanks for the nudge. Perhaps if I find a bit more personal discipline I will also be able to stop shooting for score for a while at some point.

Gerard, that sounds good. Keep us up on your progress.