Pistol Rimfire ammo

[schatzperson]

Ok here is the question:
If the cheaper plinking ammo is often quoted as being good for 1 inch at 50m meters, then why do pistol savants spend millions on special match pistol ammo ?

I mean, 1" in 50m translates roughly in 1/2 in 25 meters, so what is going on here ?
Are we after placings within the X ring ?
Or is it all question of consistency ( no flyers, uniform velocity etc) only ?

[lastman]

I have tried pretty much every kind of ammo available in the Australian market through my free pistol and have yet to come across any cheaper ammo that can consistently hold a 1" (25mm) group.

I have found a couple that will hold a 25mm group once or twice but trying to get them to do it 4,5 or 6 times as the rigours of competition demands they just don't stand up.

Think about it. Here in Aus you can get CCI standard for about $7 per 50 shots. Tennex is about $35 and Lapua Midas is about $50. If CCI could perform at the same level as the Eley or Lapua they would be out of business tomorrow.

They also provide a lot of top shooters with free or heavily discounted ammo.

The main issue is consistency.

I'll happily use cheap ammo in training because the placement of the shots on the card is not the central issue.

I know that when I put cheaper ammo (i.e CCI) through my free pistol it holds on average a a bit more than a 10 ring group (about 30mm.) However 1 shot in 15 will be radically out of the group. So if I were to be using that in competition, there would be on average 4 shots in the 5 ring that were not my own fault.

To me that adds up to about 16 points in a match which makes a big difference.

When shooting competition (that I care about) I use the best ammo I can get which is usually Eley Tennex or Match. Both of which hold a group of about 15mm (a big difference) with no flyers. I know some people have had trouble with Tennex but the batch I use gives me no problems at all.

When you going to spend months preparing for a major competition it means time away from your family, time away from your other hobbies, complete dedication and sometime a lot of money to travel to the venue. It seems pointless to piss it away using cheap sub-standard ammo, which has the potential to ruin your whole campaign simply because of 1 inconsistent shot.

To me it doesn't matter if you a club shooter or an olympian. If your putting your heart and soul into what you're doing you should fork out the extra couple of bucks to give yourself the best chance.

That being said. DO THE TEST WORK... get as many different types of ammo you can get your hands on and test them thoroughly. NOT JUST 10 SHOTS. I am talking at least 100 shots for each brand preferably more, you really have to get to know what will happen throughout a match.

Find the ammo that gives your gun the best results. Don't just assume. I tend to find that with a lot of people who shoot Morini's they find Eley does not give them good results. However people who shoot Hammerli's tend to get good results from Eley. Every gun is different.

Good luck

[Spencer]

there is a big difference between the best (of many?) 5-shot groups and a reasonable sized sample.

My process start with a Ransom Rest:
- 10-shot groups to weed out the also-rans
- 50-shot groups of those that pass the first round of testing
- then sit and ponder group sizes v cost v my 'acceptable accuracy'.

I am a 25m shooter with an 'acceptable accuracy' expectation of 50-shot groups that get inner-10 groups (25mm), COUPLED WITH a reliability expectation of better than 1:5000.
I have yet to encounter "...cheaper plinking ammo..." that meets these expectations - in all fairness, for my individual pistols some of the very expensive ammunition also does not meet these expectations.

[Freepistol]

When I was testing ammo for 100 yard prone matches, we also tested in the wind to see if one lot handled it better. I'm glad we don't have to do that for our free pistols, too.
I agree with Lastman that it is foolish to be cheap with match ammo especially when one only shoots 60 or so rounds. Prone matches really use up the cartridges. Ben

[ColinC]

My problem is that you have to sort out the best performing ammo over and over again.

I have found variations between batches to be considerable. It is one reason I stopped using Eley in my standard pistol.

So annoying to find something which your pistol likes and which gives tight groups, and then you find the next batch is completely different, caused either by the manufacture tweaking something or by accident. (I am not sure which.)

What I have done the last couple of times is order a case of ammo, buy one brick out of it to confirm that it is still consistent and then go back and buy the rest of the case. My supplier is happy to do that for me.

[j-team]

I have tried pretty much every kind of ammo available in the Australian market through my free pistol and have yet to come across any cheaper ammo that can consistently hold a 1" (25mm) group.

Interesting. How were you holding the free pistol and did you do this at 50m indoors?

If you held the pistol correctly and did not have any wind to effect the groups you should been able to hold 25mm, even with the likes of CCI SV. 12-15mm with top range Eley, Lapua, RWS etc.

I tested about a dozen different types of ammo in my Toz some years ago (indoors with the barrel clamped in wooden vee blocks). I found only one ammo that would not shoot under 50mm (Mexican CI) and more than half of them shot under 25mm including Aussie and US made winchester and US made CCI. All of the European stuff went under 20mm.

Perhaps you have a dud barrel on your pistol?

[Hemmers]

Ok here is the question:
If the cheaper plinking ammo is often quoted as being good for 1 inch at 50m meters, then why do pistol savants spend millions on special match pistol ammo ?

I mean, 1" in 50m translates roughly in 1/2 in 25 meters, so what is going on here ?
Are we after placings within the X ring ?
Or is it all question of consistency ( no flyers, uniform velocity etc) only ?

The first thing is that although cheaper ammo might hold the 10 ring, you still want the smallest group size possible, to leave you with a bit of breathing space. No good if you shoot consistent 10.9s but your ammo falls anywhere in the 10-ring. Even the slightest error put ypou out (okay, this is free pistol, but you take my point!). You need to have absolute confidence in your gun/ammo combination.
The other thing to think about is that if you're in a final, 10 is not good enough. You're on decimal scoring so every fraction counts.

And yes, consistency. Even 1 in 100 is not good enough, or you're odds on for getting a flyer in every match.

[j-team]

That's all good advice for those shooting 560+ in Free Pistol.

But, back in the real world, I don't think it's worth investing too much effort trying to reduce your pistols grouping ability by 5mm when the holding ability would be, say 150mm for a 540 shooter.

The hours spent on the test bench would be more profitable for results if spent improving the holding, sighting, triggering etc.

I understand that testing is necessary, and have fired thousands of rounds testing myself over the years. But, reality is that a 560 shooter shooting the cheap ammo will beat a 520 shooter who uses eley tenex (or sinilar) every time.

[lastman]

J-Team. When I was testing I had the pistol in a ransom rest on an outdoor range. We don't have any facilities for indoor testing and I feel that outdoors gives you better 'real world results.' It was however an unusually still day.

When I say I 25mm group that is over a minimum of 50 shots.

I can't rationalise a 10 shot group as being indicative of what the ammo will do. Whilst the main groups were ok it was the 4 or 5 really wild shots that told me never to shoot the cheap stuff in competition. I also found that expensive brands such as RWS did similar things. Eley Tenex put 100 shots all well inside a x ring group.

I personally believe that doing things like ammo testing is important no matter what level you are shooting at. If you're going to buy any ammo in bulk you need to know that its going to do the job for you.

But to each their own.

Good luck

[Freepistol]

. . . . . . But, reality is that a 560 shooter shooting the cheap ammo will beat a 520 shooter who uses eley tenex (or sinilar) every time.

However, will a 560 shooter using cheap ammo beat a 555 shooter using good ammo?
How much difference in price is there? Even if it's 20 cents per round in the US--that's an extra 12 bucks for a 60 shot match to ensure that a wide shot was yours and not the fault of the ammo.

[j-team]

J-Team. When I was testing I had the pistol in a ransom rest on an outdoor range. We don't have any facilities for indoor testing and I feel that outdoors gives you better 'real world results.' It was however an unusually still day.

If it is possible with your setup, try to get a small (4"/100mm) machine vice (milling/drilling type). Mount it on the platform that you have your ransom rest on and try the test again by clamping the barrel (make a couple of wooden vee blocks). If it's a Toz you are testing, removing the fore-end will give you more barrel length to clamp. If you can, get a dial test indicator with a magnetic base. Put the mag base on the vice and the stylus od the D.T.I. on the pistol and give it a good wriggle checking for movement as you go. The act of loading and firing 50 or 100 shots can move things. You need to be absolutely sure that it's the ammo giving you the fliers not the set-up.

I used to 10 shot groups with a wide selection of ammo, then choose the few I liked and do a whole box of 50 of them. I'd unfold the cardboard packet and do the group on that so I would alway know which ammo it was.

I'm not anti testing, as I've mentioned earlier, I've done loads of it. But, I just want to stress that you shouldn't get hung up on it. Some of my best scores have been done with "cheap" ammo. The last thing you want to do is to start blaming any unexplained shots on ammo.

That said, I always used Lapua Pistol King at National and International matches.

[j-team]

However, will a 560 shooter using cheap ammo beat a 555 shooter using good ammo?

If the 555 shooter spends his time worrying about his ammo and the 560 guy just concentrates on technique. Then Yes the 560 guy will win.

[Freepistol]

However, will a 560 shooter using cheap ammo beat a 555 shooter using good ammo?

If the 555 shooter spends his time worrying about his ammo and the 560 guy just concentrates on technique. Then Yes the 560 guy will win.

Why would the 555 shooter worry about his ammo when he has the good stuff?

[j-team]

Why would the 555 shooter worry about his ammo when he has the good stuff?

I said IF.

I'm just trying to lend my 20+ years of experience. I waisted a lot of time in my early years fussing over minute equipment details. Then I watched Russian and Chinese shooter winning many world championships with gear that could have been considered to be inferior to mine. It might have taken many years to sink in but it finally dawned on me that being physically and mentally prepared is far far more important when it comes to competitive performance.

But, each to their own I guess.

[agentr]

j-team

AMEN!

hey Guys! You cant buy better scores...You gotta earn them!

[lastman]

It might have taken many years to sink in but it finally dawned on me that being physically and mentally prepared is far far more important when it comes to competitive performance.

But, each to their own I guess.

Couldn't agree more.

At the end of the day you can do all the test work you like and spend millions on having the right equipment, but at the end of the day it all comes down to your process.

Your ammo can make a couple of points difference per match, but it will never make up the points lost by not having great technique.

Good luck

[deadeyedick]

but it will never make up the points lost by not having great technique.

And the reality is that in events such as standard and rapid is that most [if not all ] kid ourselves that during the fast firing stages that we have technique and control behaviour that was made in heaven. NOTHING could be further from the truth.
The wild loss of control in the standard 10 second, and rapid 4 second series means that paying through the nose for over priced ammo is a case of self delusion. Get real guys...you are not ransom rests...you are ageing men/women in most cases ...[apologies to the younger shooters], and the majority cant hold a pistol within one tenth of what the cheapest ammo is capable of shooting in these faster series.