TargetTalk

When doing the holding practice for 90 seconds as recommended in USAShooting article by Keith Anderson.

Is it better to hold a light weight (pistol) or hold a heavier dumb-bell 4lbs?

For me holding pistol for 90 seconds is too easy, holding dumb-bell for 90 seconds is an effort.

I use a plastic milk jug. You can fill it with some water. When that becomes too easy, put in a little more water. For maximum benefit, aim the top of the milk jug on a bullseye target taped to the wall. Hold with the non-shooting hand and arm, as well as, the shooting hand and arm.

I use a plastic spray bottle. A short bottle fill it up with target trap spent pellets up to 3 lbs.

I have the weight and I have the trigger.

Misny, do you feel that the holding drills have improved your shooting? More in slow fire or is there a general overall improvement? Isabel

My understanding is that you want more repetitions at a lower weight, rather than struggling to lift a heavy one a few times. This is supposed to train the muscles required for steadiness, as opposed to brute strength. If holding for 90 seconds is easy, you haven't done it enough times.

Back when I was in my late 30s I used to do a bunch of REALLY HEAVY shoulder presses and lateral raises on Nautilus machines, and follow a total body workout with holding a 5 lb weight disk "on aim" until it started to drop. After about 2 minutes on aim, spectators start wondering what you're doing. Makes a pistol feel very light for a very long time..

As a threshold matter, shouldn't we consider whether holding drills are advisable to begin with?

10 time national bullseye champion Brian Zins provides an interesting perspective (with which I happen to agree)

http://www.brianzins.com/2010/03/28/ant ... n-part-ii/

I agree with Brian's approach to the 2700-match timing, however it's not the only shooting competition in the world. Free Pistol competitors tend to hold for a little longer, and often raise 3-4 times per shot. Air, too. Nothing wrong with having strength developed in the "off season" if there is such a thing, to make the task of raising and holding something that is easier to do - the fine skills can be improved after a few months of getting stronger in part of an annual and/or quadrennial training program.
Walter

Isabel1130 wrote:Misny, do you feel that the holding drills have improved your shooting? More in slow fire or is there a general overall improvement? Isabel

Being over the hill now, and fighting off some maladies, my scores are slowly coming down. I did find that when I first started shooting, it helped my scores dramatically. It also helped maintain good scores through my prime years. I used this technique and also tied the jug on a string and stapled the string to a piece of mop handle and did roll-up exercises. These things steady my hold and give me endurance. That, in turn, helps with the mental aspect.

orionshooter wrote:As a threshold matter, shouldn't we consider whether holding drills are advisable to begin with?

10 time national bullseye champion Brian Zins provides an interesting perspective (with which I happen to agree)

http://www.brianzins.com/2010/03/28/ant ... n-part-ii/

Thanks for the link to an excellent article. When Brian talks, we all should listen. This article is directed at sustained fire technique. I agree with it completely when it comes to sustained fire.

The holding exercises are solely to build endurance and strength. They have nothing to do with technique. The reason one aims the milk jug is to tone up the small muscles that control a pistol. If we hold the jug up without trying to control it, we miss those small muscles. One advantage of using the milk jug rather than a weighted pistol or arm holding a pistol is to avoid the psychological connection with the pistol that Brian is talking about.

Ages ago Col Miller taught me to dry fire a good shot and hold the follow through for several seconds (10-15) seconds more with the trigger still pressed. Then lower slowly to not learn to drop out too soon and not become too fatigued.

He also advocated the milk jug for strength and the weight on a rope and stick. What ever you do do not hold and teach your self to not pull the trigger. Understand that holding the jug is not a shot. The goal here is strength/endurance. Don't let your mind connect everything to a shot.

Perhaps I should follow my early training more....

Some months ago JackH wrote about dry firing the first shot and continue[ing to hold and using a pulsing the trigger finger for at least five times before lowering the pistol. This seems to be a very good solution to the effort of strengthing the muscles used in firing and avoiding the problem Brian Zins mentions in his writings. Also I would like to mention Col White as having influence on many other shooters. My favorite coach was one of his deciples. Good Shooting Bill Horton

orionshooter wrote:As a threshold matter, shouldn't we consider whether holding drills are advisable to begin with?

10 time national bullseye champion Brian Zins provides an interesting perspective (with which I happen to agree)

http://www.brianzins.com/2010/03/28/ant ... n-part-ii/

As both JackH and 2650 point out, the concern I expressed was directed at the idea of "holding exercises" where one maintains a sight picture as long as possible (without commiting to a release of the trigger) to improve the hold . I was certainly not referring to simple arm exercises used to increase muscular endurance by using weights which I believe is a great idea.

2650 Plus wrote:Some months ago JackH wrote about dry firing the first shot and continue[ing to hold and using a pulsing the trigger finger for at least five times before lowering the pistol. This seems to be a very good solution to the effort of strengthing the muscles used in firing and avoiding the problem Brian Zins mentions in his writings. Also I would like to mention Col White as having influence on many other shooters. My favorite coach was one of his deciples. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill
Do you mean Col "Miller" ? I sure do miss my coach.
There are writings by Joe White that are very good. The "Bullseye Treasury" has many articles from military shooters. All good stuff. But use the following exchange between me and BZ as a guide.

"The great posts recently that dived into the mind set for shooting leave me to think that there is no one correct technique to shoot, either physical or mental technique. You listen to many dialogues on how to, and make your own combined versions that work for you. One caveat I can see is thinking too much, trying to tell the subconscious what to "do" rather than what you "want". After a certain skill level, I believe the shooting must become more of a flow of moves rather than steps at a time. Jack H

and BZ response:
Jack, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT - BRIAN


JackH

Finland rapid fire team holding practis is with your own gun.
That is right weight for this practice:

Take a shooting position, rise up your pistol and aim to target.
Hold 20 seconds and let hand go down for 30 seconds and lift
gun up again.. keep doing this for 30 minutes.

If you are not "professional" may be less be better :-)

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Same here.

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I think conditioning your muscle groups is a good thing for shooting in general. I don't think that training yourself to hold on target without completing your shot process is a good thing. Many scores suffer from holding too long as it is and putting the pistol DOWN when your shot process glitches is very hard for many people, but usually the best thing to do. Put it down, and start the shot process again!
What I have done to combine dry firing and strength/endurance conditioning is to fill an old .45 magazine with lead and insert it in my pistol while I dry fire. I get the weight conditioning while I conduct the ever needed dry fire training.
This doesn't help those who shoot international or air pistol only but they might consider a moderate wrist weight while they dry fire.

ciscovt