TargetTalk

To all you eggheads and rocket scientists,

Do you think that wrapping a barrel (and possibly an extension tube) with carbon fiber material (like tape), running it both length-wise and then around the tubes, would have any affect on vibrational/harmonic dampening?

If so, do you think a carbon fiber/kevlar weave would do a better job?

I just know that when my wife gets ornery, and I tie her up with duct tape, she gets considerably more quiet. will this translate? :) BartP

Well Walther thought wrapping the barrel in a carbon sleeve was of some advantage, but i'm more convinced its a cosmetic touch rather than much else. I don't see carbon sleeves on any of the other air rifles yet they still shoot high scores and win comps. If Walther felt the need to as they say, damp down vibration with a carbon sleeve then to me that says they hadn't got the vibration under control in the first place.

carbon is the in material for every thing these days from racing cars to the space shuttle, so I guess its a good selling point for Walther.
I know this sounds sceptical and I also shoot a Walther LG-300XT.
JSB

I think BartP is referring to a smallbore rifle. Colin

I believe that wrapping the barrel of a rimfire rifle with carbon fiber tape to reduce vibrations could possibly have some potential. I wouldn't do this, however, on a rifle where I couldn't swap out the barrels easily, in the event that it made the rifle shoot worse.

I don't see the need to run the tape lengthwise and then around the barrel. That seems like over kill to me, I don't see why just wrapping it around the barrel wouldn't work.

Something that you would want to take into consideration when trying this would be how much of an increased diameter the tape would add to barrel. You don't want to wrap it in the tape and then find out that the barrel diameter was increased to such an extent that it is no longer free floated in the stock and is touching the barrel channel. This would pretty much defeat the purpose of any improvements you hope to see from the use of the carbon fiber tape.

In response to the comments about Walther using a carbon fiber barrel sleeve on their air rifles, I don't think there is really any accuracy advantage to it. Maybe I am wrong, I have never really paid that close of attention, but I don't think the barrel sleeves actually touch the barrel. I was under the impression that the barrel sleeves were there for increased sight radius and that was it. With this in mind, the reason for using a carbon fiber sleeve over a standard steel barrel sleeve would be weight savings in my opinion. By having a carbon fiber barrel sleeve the overall initial weight of the rifle would be reduced, which is an advantage in that it allows the shooter to add weight to the rifle where they want it, to balance the rifle better for their individual position.

Back to the original question about carbon fiber tape reducing barrel vibrations. It might be worth while to do some research about carbon fiber and its vibration damping abilities before trying it on your barrel.

Brian

BJ wrote:Back to the original question about carbon fiber tape reducing barrel vibrations. It might be worth while to do some research about carbon fiber and its vibration damping abilities before trying it on your barrel.

The bicycle industry has long preached the benefits of carbon fiber in frame construction, and while there are many purists who proclaim that "steel is real" you can't really argue against the vibration damping characteristics of carbon fiber.

I switched from an all-steel road bike to a steel/carbon fiber bike and the difference in ride quality was amazing (notwithstanding slight differences in geometry between the two frames). To me this is the best of both worlds -- steel is springy and responsive but the CF takes the edge off road buzz (which makes my butt happy).

A poorly constructed CF bike frame often leads to a "dead" sensation when riding, and I worry that a badly constructed CF-wrapped barrel would affect recoil characteristics in the same way (if that makes sense).

But with all this talk of indexing and barrel curvature and whatnot, I'd love to see someone who understands all this stuff have a go and give us an answer.

Jason

Curious, I simply googled carbon fiber rifle barrels and looks like this is not a new idea. There are manufactures out there already that wrap rifle barrels in carbon fiber, and from what I've read it has accuracy enhancing potential. Below is link to the leading manufacturer in carbon fiber wrapped barrels.

http://home.windstream.net/mdegerness/

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek092.html

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmithin ... xt_200901/

http://bettincustomguns.com/Technical%2 ... antage.htm


Brian

I agree, it probably has a good damping effect on a rim fire rifle especially if the barrel is a floating barrel.

JSB

HeyBart,
Off the barrel topic, but here is an extension tube made of carbon fiber
http://www.beesafeusa.com/beesting.htm

Paul G. wraps his barrel with Mueller sports tape...keeps heat controlled? only he knows.
Every psychological advantage helps.
Good luck at the Spring Selection

Wrapping the barrel with carbon fiber will have a damping effect, however you will still have vibrational nodes. Barrel tuners, as well as handloading for highpower rifles, try to make bullet exit at one of the nodes.

I have a carbon wrapped barrel on a 10/22, and it shoots great, but still won't match my 1413 Anschutz.

Hi all,

Good discussion. I currently use a tuner made for benchrest but will soon be switching barrels and adding Tarl Kempley's carbon tuner/extension. I discussed the concept of a carbon wrapped barrel briefly with Tarl, and we both seemed to think it was a reasonable assumption that it would help in some fashion.

Thanks to the research done by BJ, it seems that some real work has been done with regard to this topic. As it turns out, one of the main results of wrapping the barrel with CB was removal of heat from the barrel. The CB conducts heat away from the barrel - keeping the temperature of the barrel consistent (and lower) and therefore more accurate. I have yet to wade through all the material, and I am sure there will be a person or two to speak with who was directly involved - hopefully a REALLY SMART person who can answer my questions simply and directly. I will pass it along to you. For now, if y'all would hit BJ's links and process the information, maybe we can all work together to come to a reasonable conclusion one way or the other - at which time I might be inclined to sacrifice my current barrel for a test run.

And thank you, Buckeye. I am looking forward to the Selections very much. It is the biggest match of the year for so many of us. After shooting a Selections match, the NRA matches feel "fun" - either way, I'm looking forward to shooting well this summer and meeting many of you.

BartP

I believe it would be a testing nightmare to try and quantify the pluses and minuses of carbon fiber wrapped barrels. I know shooters that will only take their round from the end of the box that has the manufactor's name on it. They are convinced that the rounds are more alike being closer togeather. And I can't prove them wrong. Bart, this should be right up your alley. Have fun with the concept and if anything worth while developes please keep on posting. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Hi Bill,

Not sure what you mean by "taking rounds from the end of the box with the manufacturer's name on it". Can you explain that a little more? Thanks. Bart

I think the concept of carbon fiber is a bit different from what you folks are thnking.

First, carbon fiber is usually added to a thinner barrel to increase diameter without the weight of steel. I looked at the links Brian passed along, and I don't see any real competitive value in that except in the cases that weight may be an issue. This might work for female or junior shooters.

It shed heat quickly, and in my case, that would be a detriment. There are many barrels (like mine) that need heat to stabilize. If you were shooting high power rapid fire, I could see the benefit, but not for smallbore.

The original thought process was looking for harmonic dampeners. I found one (and used it for a while until it fell apart) that seemed to hit it on the head. It was a barrel weight with a certain thickness of silicone material on the interior that clamped to a barrel a few inches from the muzzle. The concept was that any harmonic vibrations would be transferred through the silicone and absorbed by the semi-isolated mass of the barrel weight. It worked. When installed, it made a 10-20% reduction in group size. I'm thinking of building one myself or dropping a line to the fellow in the midwest that made them and sold me mine.

Good luck Bart - we have our State Games next weekend, and unlike Brian, I haven't competed in that before. Bought some Eley Red, we'll see how we all do.

BartP wrote:Hi Bill,

Not sure what you mean by "taking rounds from the end of the box with the manufacturer's name on it". Can you explain that a little more? Thanks. Bart

He means shooters with a pathological degree of obsessive-compulsive personality trait who always open a box from the same end and use the rounds in the order they come out of the box, in the belief that they're put into the box in the same order they come out of the machine at the factory.

I have done my wading and sent out a series of queries to various manufacturers with regard to the sport-specific needs of smallbore shooting. I expect to get some solid answers this week.

Heat reduction is not my main concern. But maintaining a 'consistent' heat environment would seem like a good thing. MOST of the manufacturers tout the heat reduction under high power conditions, for sure. But keeping as many variables consistent would be an advantage to some degree. Only makes sense.

The optimal situation would be if we, as a class of shooter, could choose the barrel we want from any of the custom barrel makers and have it's existing properties of accuracy enhanced by applying a carbon fiber config/formula. Simple as that. If it proved to be effective, then it would make sense to put some effort toward testing various aspects of the system and tweak it's effectiveness.

I'll pass along what the eggheads send me in response. BartP

Hello
Here is a link to French team who work on shooting gear, on custom ask.
Look especially at the scale trigger !
Ask them what you want, they always answer quickly
http://www.sostechnology.fr/
Nice day every one

Gerhard

Reply to Bart P. In military speak a round .is a loaded cartrige.and a box of 22 ammo usually has a small half moon cutout on the end of the box that usually has the manufactors name,with their designation for what ever series the load was produced, I am sure you know all of this but I am uncertain about the specifics of your question. Good Shooting and testing Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:I believe it would be a testing nightmare to try and quantify the pluses and minuses of carbon fiber wrapped barrels.

For a one-off it would be a nightmare.

Calculating the expansion coefficients would be a major pita. But if the data is out there already, proper selection of material and engineering the layups could have serious benefits for production runs.

One could, I believe, enhance or reduce selected nodes for instance. Or counteract uneven vertical expansion by adding layers on the opposite side of the barrel.

If you're willing to build a test bed rifle to try it on and don't mind dropping a few hundred in semi-specialized equipment (a 20" of mercury vacuum source, bags, plumbing, and oven) to do a proper lamination, it should be fun. You can do without the oven, but that limits your choice of resin a lot. Without the vacuum, though, results will be unpredictable due to bubbles in the lamination.

Pat McCoy wrote:

Wrapping the barrel with carbon fiber will have a damping effect, however you will still have vibrational nodes. Barrel tuners, as well as handloading for highpower rifles, try to make bullet exit at one of the nodes.

I thought the idea was to have the bullet exit with the muzzle at an anti-node, ie where its lateral velocity was zero, although its displacement would be maximum. In other words, when muzzle was still, or nearly so.

JSBmatch wrote:Well Walther thought wrapping the barrel in a carbon sleeve was of some advantage, but i'm more convinced its a cosmetic touch rather than much else. I don't see carbon sleeves on any of the other air rifles yet they still shoot high scores and win comps. If Walther felt the need to as they say, damp down vibration with a carbon sleeve then to me that says they hadn't got the vibration under control in the first place.

carbon is the in material for every thing these days from racing cars to the space shuttle, so I guess its a good selling point for Walther.
I know this sounds sceptical and I also shoot a Walther LG-300XT.
JSB

Yep, got an anatomic here, and a few shrouded dommies, some aftermarket, some not, and a bare barrel dommy. Nothing in it between them in accuracy terms. One of my dommies has shot sub below 5mm groups at 50m, and i think that had it's bare steel floated barrel then. Only got shrouded because it stopped it getting rusty.

I'd say the time spent working on it, working out if it worked or not, would probably be spent with a coach having an assessment on what you're not doing to your optimum, long before the kit reaches it's.