TargetTalk

I am reloading 148 gr HBWC in my 38 Special and noticed that the resizing die reduces the diameter considerably. Even after I use the neck expander die, this fit between bullet and case seems too tight. I'm concerned that I might be deforming the soft lead bullets while seating them. Is it possible to forgo the sizing operation and seat the bullets in a fired case. I would think that the minimal recoil of the 38 wouldn't cause the bullets to shift in the loaded rounds. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I've been down this road!
This is a problem with some reloading dies that I think goes back to the mid-late '70s. The die manufacturers seemed to have adopted the smaller sizing diameter as a means of assuring tight neck tension when using jacketed bullets in magnum cartridges. Compounding the problem was the great discrepancy between case wall thickness of cadmium plated and plain 38 and 357 cases at the time. Since dies are manufactured and marketed as "38 spl/357mag", etc. they seemed to believe that a one size fits all approach was best.
There is no easy fix for your dies. You could possibly get a larger diameter expander plug, but then you'll have concentricity problems not to mention overworked brass.
I would contact the manufacturer and tell them your situation. Tell them you want a die set that will size the cases to a larger diameter to grip lead wadcutters more gently. A good company like RCBS and Redding (I mention them specifically!) will understand the issue and bend over backwards to correct the problem.
But to answer your question, forgoing resizing is not a good idea. One day you'll get to a match and find you have ammo that won't chamber. Or, you'll get poor accuracy from erratic ignition.
Best regards,
Jim

By my personal measurement, there was no difference in the bullet size before and after seating.

Your mileage may vary. That is not to say that the bullet may not be held more firmly thereby enhancing ignition.

Further to 6string's comments, not all brands of case are the same for dimensions and hardness. I have a batch of PMC cases (brass) that will not fit the chambers of my K14 S&W when loaded with 148gr WC.

Spencer

Spencer wrote:Further to 6string's comments, not all brands of case are the same for dimensions and hardness. I have a batch of PMC cases (brass) that will not fit the chambers of my K14 S&W when loaded with 148gr WC.

Spencer

Keep an eye out for military cases and +p cases.

The brass is thicker and will leave a bump in the case when you load a DEWC. These don't even come close to fitting in my Model 52 S&Ws.

Interesting - I have kept meaning to post on this topic: now's my chance!

I bought a set of Redding titanium carbide dies in 38spl (set No. 88183 ). Hugely expensive by the time they got to New Zealand :-(

The sizing die comes with a leaflet which says, "Carbide pistol sizing dies are not designed to full length size cases. Adjust the die to size only that portion of the case that has been expanded during firing. On some cases an undesirable ring or belt may appear near the base if the sizing die is incorrectly adjusted. This may weaken the case and is not desirable."

Well, I didn't really understand that... Can someone explain? My cases seem to expand pretty well their full length, or, at least, there isn't a clear demarcation between expanded and non-expanded regions. The sizing die reduces the diameter far too much. (Sorry, no cases or micrometer to hand as I write). The expander, however, allows the HBWC to be seated easily enough. If I restrict the sizing to the length of the bullet, I end up with a sort of (slightly) bottle-necked case.

Surely the sizing die is of too small a diameter. It is working the case unnecessarily. Redding say it is because they have to make the dies cope with thin-walled cases. I am using Lapua cases: I don't know whether these are considered thick-walled.

Another gripe with Redding - the replacement seating plug, allegedly for wadcutters, is too short and bears on the nose of the projectile, variably flattening it.

Please could someone explain what is going on?

You don't say what type of gun your shooting these in and I think that it would make a huge difference as to what you should do.

I was shooting a S&W mod. 14 last year in my bullseye league and found that the following worked out very well for me and gave me better accuracy also.
After cleaning my cases in a tumbler I would NOT full lenght resize. I would just decap and flare the case mouths. I would then prime, drop my powder charge and then seat my Remingtom HBWC's. It was still a snug fit with the WC's and the case but much less that it would be if I full lenght resized and no bullet distorsion that I could tell. My final step was to use a Lee taper crimp die.


No full lenght resizing, no bullet distorsion, better accuracy that when I did FL resize and zero problems with cases not fitting in my cylinder properly. I also found out that with my gun if I seated the WC's out about an 1/8 on an inch my accuracy also inproved.This workd well for me ever though some say it shouldn't be done.

Kirmdog

I've been shooting the Remington HBWCs also. With that black wax lube those babies are FAT!

Since I started using them because that's all the local guy had (used Speers before) I have been getting quite a buildup of wax in my seating die, requiring adjustment or cleaning.

I think I'll try your way(s) and see what happens.

rick983 wrote:I am reloading 148 gr HBWC in my 38 Special and noticed that the resizing die reduces the diameter considerably. Even after I use the neck expander die, this fit between bullet and case seems too tight. I'm concerned that I might be deforming the soft lead bullets while seating them. Is it possible to forgo the sizing operation and seat the bullets in a fired case. I would think that the minimal recoil of the 38 wouldn't cause the bullets to shift in the loaded rounds. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Call Lee and get an oversize sizing die. I did that for seating 0.314" bullets in a 32 Long. They have both oversize and undersize dies. Appparently items outside normal manufacturing tolerances. They sell the undersize dies readilly to the action pistol crown but the oversize dies are a literal drug on the market.

Greetings,

I steal the following from Ed Harris...

1) Decap and clean your fired brass. DO NOT RESIZE.
2) Flare the case mouth
3) Cap the brass.
4) Charge the case with powder.
5) Seat a Remington 148 HBWC flush to the case mouth
6) Using a Lee Carbide Crimping Die, size and crimp the finished round.

You will be pleased with the end results.

PS I find it best to use brass that was originally loaded with wadcutter bullets. This is so the cannelures on the bullet and brass align with each other.

Cheers,

Dave

Dave,

Interesting idea, but if the case is sized with the lead projectile in situ, isn't there a risk that the projectile (being more plastic than the case) will be reduced more in diameter than the case (re-expanding elastically a little from its plastic deformation)? One might expect the friction between case and projectile to end up being very low, so that only the crimping really holds the two together. A really heavy crimp may therefore be necessary, which may not be ideal for consistent results.

Perhaps this is a theoretical issue only - what do folks think?

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

I steal the following from Ed Harris...

1) Decap and clean your fired brass. DO NOT RESIZE.
2) Flare the case mouth
3) Cap the brass.
4) Charge the case with powder.
5) Seat a Remington 148 HBWC flush to the case mouth
6) Using a Lee Carbide Crimping Die, size and crimp the finished round.

You will be pleased with the end results.

PS I find it best to use brass that was originally loaded with wadcutter bullets. This is so the cannelures on the bullet and brass align with each other.

Cheers,

Dave

Or you'll find the bullets fall out and the cases fracture near the base.
Its not wise to resize loaded rounds.

I think he means to just crimp the case on the bullet.

Not a thing wrong with a good roll crimp, even in a .45 since it doesn't headspace on the case mouth anyway. It headspaces on the extractor unless you have it set up to headspace on the bullet.

Rover said:

I think he means to just crimp the case on the bullet.

But the crimp will be around the top of the HBWC - it won't be on the bullet. Agreed, the bullet won't fall out, but will the pressure needed to expel the bullet be as high and as consistent from shot to shot as it would be if there were a good helping of case-to-projectile friction?

The best test of your reloads for size is to use a bullet puller and measure the loaded size of a bullet.
For good target loads, start by driving a oversize soft lead slug thru your barrel and measure with a micrometer to determine the size of your barrel.

Then either cast and lube/resize or purchase bullets between .001 and .002 oversize for soft lead (zero to .001 for hard cast/polymer).
38 barrels can vary from .355 to .358 diameter.

Full length resize your cases, then make sure the neck expander is .001 to .002 over your bullet size (different dia plugs are available from most die makers or have them turned up). The brass will expand to the neck sizer and will spring back .002 to .003, leaving the case .001 to .002 undersize.

This will give an even case neck tension with the bullet loaded (the brass wil expand with little bullet deformation). If using HBWC, for a Auto, load flush or a very small (up to .005) lead exposed to fit your magazine and taper crimp to reduce the nose dia about .005".
For a revolver, as above for a HBWC or for cast use a roll crimp into a light crimp groove. Some powder need a heavier crimp for good clean burning.

After loading if you pull your bullet it should be the same size as it was loaded with little or no deformation.

Thanks David, that all seems good. Please can you have a look about my query above about how Redding suggest their resizing dies are used and offer your thoughts?

Rover wrote:I think he means to just crimp the case on the bullet.

Not a thing wrong with a good roll crimp, even in a .45 since it doesn't headspace on the case mouth anyway. It headspaces on the extractor unless you have it set up to headspace on the bullet.

I assumed he meant
'Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die

A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability.'

As thats the only carbide crimp die I've heard of.

Greetings,

Ed Harris, long time haunt of the NRA, pointed out in one of his articles that the major ammunition companies size and cannelure the case AFTER the bullet is seated.

Attached is a twenty shot test target fired at 50 yards using this technique. The barrel is a 1911 style 38 Special Kit (Army surplus from the 1960's) mounted in a barrel tester.

I modified my Star loader to seat the bullets with no case sizing. I still final full length size and crimp with the Lee Carbide crimp die one at a time in a single stage press. I use the Roll Crimp Die.

I fire them in autoloading pistols and revolvers with no problems.

Cheers,

Dave

Interesting, my experience of post-sizing is the case springs back (out) but the bullet doesn't, resulting in barely a friction fit.

Also the forces involved are much higher, I know people who have subsequently had base separation in 38 special.

With the correct case/bullet/sizer combination post-sizing shouldn't be necessary, but I can see why a commercial loader would want to do it.

David,

Nice test target! Very impressive grouping for an kit gun barrel.

Not being familiar with the load used - is this the same powder that's sold under the name IMR HI SKOR 700X?

TIA,
Steve