TargetTalk

Can anyone help me workout what went wrong here!

I shot 5 sighters and 20 shots in Standard Pistol Precision format - 150 secs/5 shots as this is what happened.

It seems to happen a lot, I know I can shoot 9s, 10s but I seem to have a wrist flick spasm sometimes during the hold and sometimes during trigger pull and then throw a seven or worse! Is there a name for this wrist flick and/or a way to counter it?

The best way to get more muscle spasming is to worry about it.

The best way to minimize it is to focus on something else, like watching your sights as you are pulling through on the trigger once you arrive in your area of aim.

Looks like you have a decent group, maybe a little pushing left. But the fliers are probably poor trigger releases.

I'd focus on improving your trigger release. If you think about how not to flick shots, you'll end up flicking shots.

--trinity

Build wrist/hand strength, even if you do not use a very tight grip.

Also, do not hold too long.

The spasms/jerks are often the result of fatigue in the hand, at least they were for me until I got my hands a lot stronger.

I have the same problem occasionally. In my case, it's spasms in the large muscle on top of my arm near my elbow. It gets worse as I get tired, so I think it's largely a conditioning issue. It seems to be aggravated by grip geometry and/or pistol balance. It's much worse shooting my Pardini SP than my Benelli MP90 for some reason.

Something is happening in that last instant before the pistol fires that is telling your shooting hand that it is about to fire. It could be sonething in the trigger mechanism or something mental. Also possibley a visual signal that is causing an irrisistable urge to fire the shot now.A trigger problem is the easiest to fix as long as you have a good gunsmith handy.The mental issue I mention has to do with concentration on sight allignment failing and thoughts going to trigger manipulation. The third item has to do with being too aware of the bulls eye and can also be fixed by better concentration on the relationship of front to rear sight allignment. Man , I really hope this can help as early in my own shooting career I was faced with much the same problem. The things I have mentioned are from very personnel experence. Good Shooting Bill Horton

A74BEDLM wrote:... Is there a name for this wrist flick and/or a way to counter it?

It's called the "triggered reaction." It's also known as the "wine glass reaction," since it is what occurs when you bump a glass of red wine off of the table and grab it before it spills all over your white carpet. It occurs 80 to 120 msec. after the stimulus and is controlled by lower order processes in your cerebellum and basal ganglia.

You can't control it, because it happens before you have time for a controlled response, which doesn't occur until about 120 to 180 msec. You have to prevent it by eliminating the stimulus that elicits it. In my case, it appears to happen during a match when I have a higher level of arousal. If the shot doesn't break when I've applied what feels like the right amout of pressure to the trigger, I get the reaction, and my shot goes into orbit. Unfortunately, a different level of arousal influences the perception of how much pressure I'm applying to the trigger.

So I switched to a roll trigger. Now the shot breaks shortly after I feel the trigger start to move, not when I think I've applied enough pressure -- no more triggered reaction. I still get a similar reaction though, if I press the trigger too slowly, i.e., the shot still hasn't broken after the trigger starts to move -- the classic "chicken finger" problem. So I form an image in my mind of pressing the trigger quickly and firmly before I start my shot sequence.

Regards,

Al B.

I am using a Matchguns MG2 - I have no Coach and no Gunsmiths Available nearby.

My current trigger setup consists of a medium dead travel movement (low force) - this seemed to work best in allowing me to get my finger into position and take up the slack of the first stage then my second stage is the rest of the weight (somewhere between 1000g and 1360g total trigger weight - dont have weights in between to see exact break weight - was over 1360g until recently had never tested it since last adjustment) with a crisp break.

To get a roll trigger with just adjustments would I have to set equal 500g weights and reduce the trigger travel of first stage?

As for the left grouping this is something I have always tended to do, don't know why. Could be trigger position - pushing left? I have tried adjusting lateral grip angle and trigger position, feet position and even sights which have all reduced the left group, also I was lining up left of centre and still do sometimes despite increasing front sight width to match diameter of black centre at my eye focus.

All help appreciated.

The comments of Al B and Bill are well spoken. I think the problem is basically one of anticipation of the shot. I also think to overcome the problem you need to go back to your shot plan or make a shot plan if you don't have one. I should say that I shoot Conventional BE pistol not Standard, but I think my comments may still apply. I have this problem occassionally and it almost always manifests itself when I either hold too long (slowfire) or when the shot doesn't break when I believe it should (sustained fire). In slow fire, your shot plan says something like 'establish your grip, extend your arm, acquire and focus on the sights, raise your arm, as you are acquiring your target, apply continuous increasing pressure until the shot breaks as your aligned sights arrive in the middle of your aiming area.' If the shot doesn't break in 2-3 seconds, abort the shot and start your shot plan again.
In sustained fire, I am finding that you can basically do the same thing, albeit in a shortend restart version. If as I come up on the bull, if I veer off course, I mini-abort the shot, let up on the trigger as I let my sights drop below the bull, restart my trigger and make it steady and continuous until the shot break as I am coming into my aiming area. I don't think Bill believes that you should consciously think about trigger manipulation. I generally agree with him but find that I sometimes have to very briefly say to myself "knuckle left, (I'm left handed) firm pressure early" as I start my trigger manipulation before I am in my hold area, but then the concentration has to go back to sights. Keep at it !
Scott

A74BEDLM wrote:To get a roll trigger with just adjustments would I have to set equal 500g weights and reduce the trigger travel of first stage?

Just to clarify, I mentioned switching to a roll trigger to try to fix a problem that I'm having -- as an example. I wasn't suggesting that it is the same problem that you are experiencing.

On my Pardini, I adjust the amount of roll by turning a screw. It doesn't affect the relative weight of the first or second stage, or the amount of travel in the first stage. For my .45, I replaced the hammer and sear with another set that I modified specifically to get a roll. I have no idea how to create a roll on the MG2. Several very accomplished shooters, including Bill Horton, have said that they use a crisp trigger. 9-time national champion Brian Zins, on the other hand, extols the virtues of the roll trigger. YMMV.

My former coach, who used to be one of the best shooters in the country, and still holds a number of national records, once picked up my Pardini and dry-fired it several times. At the time, it was set to have a very crisp 2-stage trigger. After he had dry-fired it, he exclaimed, "Wow! this trigger has a really nice long roll!" He was pulling all of the way through the first and second stages without any pause. You might consider trying to operate your trigger this way.

As for grouping to the left, try adjusting your sights -- that's why it has screws. If you took your group in the target that you posted and shifted it slightly to the right, it wouldn't seem like it was grouping to the left at all.

Regards,

Al B.

To create rool on the MG2 trigger you first take off the grip, under the rear sight you will find a small allen screw (below the screw to adjust rake angle of the grip), this screw you turn anti clockwise.

I went back to the range yesterday and equalled the weight of the first and second stage as an experiment. I shot a much better 20 and 10 sec series but the precision was slightly down (10pts) but I was using different ammunition and different breathing regime for the 20 and 10 sec series.

Back to the range again will reshoot 25 shots with usual ammunition and compare but definetly felt better - less chicken finger as my normal second stage was heavier before adjustment.

I can now see this response is related to hold time as started testing my modified TOZ-35 yesterday as well and could see the flicks much easier in the hold (probably due to increased sight radius but managed to avoid trigger operation during the flick). I friend of mine suggested I read;

http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli.shtml
http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli2.shtml

which also helped me to understand the situation.

I have a gyrotwister and just ordered a gripmaster so will have to think about increasing basic training with these and perhaps more dryfiring and some general cardiovascular exercise.

Thanks for advice

I suggest you read Scotts post again. I agree totally with the sequence he has described. His comment about me is also correct. The only time I give a thought ro the trigger is to iniate the start of continually increasing pressure before I settle into my hold area. I simply dont deal with trigger again until after the shot has fired as my mind is totally involved in perfecting sight allignment.Follow through is to me the reaction time between the shot firing and me becoming aware of it. As as training technique, I recover after each shot has fired back into my prefered hold area on the target. Good Shooting Bill Horton