TargetTalk

Hi, I'm a fairly new (2,5 yrs) and reborn (15+ yrs break) pistol-shooter. I am in need of some training ideas and/or drills to come further.
Did try to find Steve Swartz´s training-program without any luck. Please provide a link anyone!
Currently I shoot air (fwb p30), standard and sport (unique des69u), and find 10 sec the hardest to "master" (mid2low 80's).
I do most of my training by my self, but have been told not train/focus on points/score. Focus on good technics and posetive thoughts have taken me far, but I want to go further (europa cup maybe?).
Please help
Mikkel, Denmark

Ahhhh-good luck!

What exact discipline do you want to train?
Static airpistol?
Or fastfire?
How do you train now? What do you do?
Maybe I can help if you provide some extra info..

Hi Yana, at the moment I would like to do both air and std+sport(cf in time).
Recently I have been training 2 maybe 3 times a week. Air @10 and 15m 1-2 times a week 60-90 shots focusing on technic (sights /trigger /positivity) , but counting my scores and recording.
Once a week .22 @ 25m 10-20 precision-shots, then 30 10sec shots and 30 dueling-shots. When shooting 10sec, trying to get a rhythm going, but finding it hard to come back in place before the next shot.
Duelling is going rather well (for me) 288 at the state champs. When training .22, I only use the "small" precision-target, also in duel.
My pb's are: air 565 in training avr.555, standard 548 in comp. avr.535, sport 570 avr. 560. My tools(guns) might not be the newest around, but are what I can afford right now.
Hopeing to get a lot of exiting ideas about training(drills,exercises)
Thanks. Mikkel from Denmark.

"When shooting 10sec, trying to get a rhythm going, but finding it hard to come back in place before the next shot."

Dont worry about rhythm. The trick to Rapid Fire is to be continually moving the trigger as you align the sights. If your shots break in a cadence you are more than likely forcing the shot and jerking the trigger. If you work on continuously aligning the sights as you work the trigger, the size of your groups will come down. You also need to work on getting the first shot off smoothly and quickly, as the target turns. You learn this by shooting a lot of one and two and three second drills, where you only fire the first shot of the five shot string. If you get the first shot off quickly and smoothly you will have almost 9 seconds for the last 4 shots. Isabel.

Isabel1130 wrote:You also need to work on getting the first shot off smoothly and quickly, as the target turns. You learn this by shooting a lot of one and two and three second drills, where you only fire the first shot of the five shot string. If you get the first shot off quickly and smoothly you will have almost 9 seconds for the last 4 shots.

What about the time needed to raise the pistol from the ready position.

I always expected to get the first shot off at 3.5-4 seconds, then concentrated on a smooth rhythmic trigger to give an even cadence finishing at about 9 seconds.

If you pistol is not coming back on aim smoothly then there is something wrong. A suitable gun/ammunition combination with a properly fitting grip, and a good technique, will allow the sights to come back on aim with no apparent effort.

David Levene wrote:

Isabel1130 wrote:You also need to work on getting the first shot off smoothly and quickly, as the target turns. You learn this by shooting a lot of one and two and three second drills, where you only fire the first shot of the five shot string. If you get the first shot off quickly and smoothly you will have almost 9 seconds for the last 4 shots.

What about the time needed to raise the pistol from the ready position.

I always expected to get the first shot off at 3.5-4 seconds, then concentrated on a smooth rhythmic trigger to give an even cadence finishing at about 9 seconds.

If you pistol is not coming back on aim smoothly then there is something wrong. A suitable gun/ammunition combination with a properly fitting grip, and a good technique, will allow the sights to come back on aim with no apparent effort.

You are right it does take longer when you start from the ready position however if you are shooting rapid fire and your first shot does not go off in the first three seconds you are outside the window for duel which to me would be too long. It would mean that you are not using the same technique to shoot rapid fire as you use for duel and that could be a problem as in my mind your first shot in rapid fire should be the same as any shot in duel especially with the light triggers used in international. Isabel

Isabel1130 wrote:You are right it does take longer when you start from the ready position however if you are shooting rapid fire and your first shot does not go off in the first three seconds you are outside the window for duel which to me would be too long. It would mean that you are not using the same technique to shoot rapid fire as you use for duel and that could be a problem as in my mind your first shot in rapid fire should be the same as any shot in duel especially with the light triggers used in international.

It is not clear what you mean by rapid fire: I presume you mean the 10 second series of the Standard Pistol match rather than Rapid Fire match.

There is no reason why you should use the same technique for the first shot in either of those events as you would use for the rapid stage of the Centre Fire (or 25m Pistol for ladies) match (duel). The rapid stage of the CF match is five totally separate shots with a separate raise for each one. The others are a series of five linked shots with a single raise.

I don't see a 1000g trigger as being particularly light; certainly heavy enough to be easily controllable.

Isabel1130 wrote:"When shooting 10sec, trying to get a rhythm going, but finding it hard to come back in place before the next shot."

Dont worry about rhythm. The trick to Rapid Fire is to be continually moving the trigger as you align the sights. If your shots break in a cadence you are more than likely forcing the shot and jerking the trigger.

Hi Isabel.

I think that teaching rhythm and cadence is a valid way to approach rapidfire shooting. It does offers another means of feedback for the athlete to use, aside from just vision. Shooting in cadence doesn't lead to forced shots or jerking the trigger: poor training and lack of attention to detail does that. You establish your triggering rhythm with your gun settling and sights aligning. As all three align, the shot will break.

The trigger action would be progressive and fluid, not hammering. I think that this trigger action is what you're recommending; but, the conclusion about cadence sounds off base.

Patrick

David Levene wrote: It is not clear what you mean by rapid fire: I presume you mean the 10 second series of the Standard Pistol match rather than Rapid Fire match.

Hi David.

I think that Isabel might be discussing the 10s rapidfire series in he NRA match. At one point, she mentioned getting the first shot off quickly, with another 9 seconds left for the remaining for shots. In that match, you don't start in the Ready position, but with arm raised and aiming at the target.

Patrick

Patrick Haynes wrote:

David Levene wrote: It is not clear what you mean by rapid fire: I presume you mean the 10 second series of the Standard Pistol match rather than Rapid Fire match.

I think that Isabel might be discussing the 10s rapidfire series in he NRA match. At one point, she mentioned getting the first shot off quickly, with another 9 seconds left for the remaining for shots. In that match, you don't start in the Ready position, but with arm raised and aiming at the target.

You might be right Patrick.

I just assumed that as Mikkel is from Denmark, mentioned Standard and Sport and talked about the Europa Cup, that he was referring to ISSF.

Patrick Haynes wrote:

Isabel1130 wrote:"When shooting 10sec, trying to get a rhythm going, but finding it hard to come back in place before the next shot."

Dont worry about rhythm. The trick to Rapid Fire is to be continually moving the trigger as you align the sights. If your shots break in a cadence you are more than likely forcing the shot and jerking the trigger.

Hi Isabel.

I think that teaching rhythm and cadence is a valid way to approach rapidfire shooting. It does offers another means of feedback for the athlete to use, aside from just vision. Shooting in cadence doesn't lead to forced shots or jerking the trigger: poor training and lack of attention to detail does that. You establish your triggering rhythm with your gun settling and sights aligning. As all three align, the shot will break.

The trigger action would be progressive and fluid, not hammering. I think that this trigger action is what you're recommending; but, the conclusion about cadence sounds off base.

Patrick

Patrick, I may disagree. Cadence is not something in my opinion that can be taught for its own sake. Cadence is a result of good training and shooting and not somethng to strive for in and of itself. If you are getting so that you know your gun so well and have shot so much rapid fire that your sights tend to realign as your shot breaks and that usually happens at regular enough intervals so that you finish your rapid fire within the allowable amount of time in a good rhythm then good for you. Your "cadence" is a result of good training and good shooting. However if you pull shots when your sights are not aligned and "cadence" is your goal rather than a result, you will be forcing shots and or pulling off shots out of the desired impact area. Other than the fact that you start in the ready position for international there is no difference in techniques for rapid fire between international and bullseye. The guys I shoot with, shoot both diciplines very sucessfully. I have sat behind them and listened to the shots as I watched their targets in rapid fire. No two strings are alike other than the fact that they get all five shots off within ten seconds, often with clean targets and there is no metronome like consistancy to the shot pattern. Yes the shots come a fairly regular intervals because these guys know their triggers and train all the time BUT it is not what a musician would perceive as cadence. Isabel.

From my perspective, you want to be aiming for something smooth and consistent and that makes full use of the time - i.e. not rushing a 10s series in 6 or 7s. When I've sat behind a standard pistol competition at international level, they are all shooting in what I'd call a smooth manner. And whilst there is an individual rhythm it sounds quite smooth and there are not the irregular bursts of fire.

As a shooter my series may vary from one to another, but the better series are almost always associated with a smooth, flowing rhythm. For me what I would want to train is to shoot in that manner consistently, but I don't do enough training in those disciplines. The same applies to both ORF and to sport / centrefire.

Rob.

Back when I ran track & field events competitively . . .

One of the greatest coaches used to say (to sprinters and middle distance runners)

"Try to run fast and you will never be either fast or smooth. Try to run smooth and you will run both smoother and faster."

Basically

One shot drill
Two shot drill
Three shot drill
Four shot drill
Five shot drill
Six shot drill

It's called "progressive" or "pyramid" training.

If yoiu can smoothly shoot a ten every single time in 10 seconds, try shooting two tens. When you can smoothly shoot two tens, try three . . .

Steve Swartz as Guest wrote:Back when I ran track & field events competitively . . .

One of the greatest coaches used to say (to sprinters and middle distance runners)

"Try to run fast and you will never be either fast or smooth. Try to run smooth and you will run both smoother and faster."

Basically

One shot drill
Two shot drill
Three shot drill
Four shot drill
Five shot drill
Six shot drill

It's called "progressive" or "pyramid" training.

If yoiu can smoothly shoot a ten every single time in 10 seconds, try shooting two tens. When you can smoothly shoot two tens, try three . . .

I have nothing to argue with here. A consistant smooth trigger pull will generally cause your shots to break in what might be perceived as a cadence, but the cadence itself cannot be imposed. Isabel

Isabel1130 wrote:I have nothing to argue with here. A consistant smooth trigger pull will generally cause your shots to break in what might be perceived as a cadence, but the cadence itself cannot be imposed. Isabel

Cadence is a method used to develop the trigger, to use as a feedback mechanism to discern whether or not you are making the shots land in time. It isn't about jerking the trigger or making the shot break at specific splits. A consistent, progressive trigger squeeze will evolve with practice, and the feedback afforded by cadence gives an indication of that goal.

Of course, it has nothing to do with jerking the trigger. If that were the case, you would have to say that by trying to get a single shot off consistently in Sport/Centerfire rapidfire, you are imposing a single beat cadence and must be forcing a shot. The two issues (cadence and cleanliness of the trigger) are mutually exclusive.

Patrick

Isabel seems closser to the experiene I've had with truly sucessful strings. The finger must start as you move from the first target to the second and the pistol must fire very soon after it stops on the second target. Repete this procedure three more times and you will achieve both cadence and accuracy. And of course the trigger finger must start steady pressure as you rise to the first target and you must try to allign sights beore the pistol fires. Even without perfect sight allignment , the target is large enough to be somewhat forgiving and scratch tens will win most matches. [ Maybe even be in record teritory] Good Shooting Bill Horton

Isabel seems closser to the experiene I've had with truly sucessful strings. The finger must start as you move from the first target to the second and the pistol must fire very soon after it stops on the second target. Repete this procedure three more times and you will achieve both cadence and accuracy. And of course the trigger finger must start steady pressure as you rise to the first target and you must try to allign sights beore the pistol fires. Even without perfect sight allignment , the target is large enough to be somewhat forgiving and scratch tens will win most matches. [ Maybe even be in record teritory] Good Shooting Bill Horton

2650Plus wrote:Isabel seems closser to the experiene I've had with truly sucessful strings. The finger must start as you move from the first target to the second and the pistol must fire very soon after it stops on the second target.

I thought we were talking about the 10 second series of Standard Pistol; only 1 target.

By enforcing a strict trigger rhythm you remove any tendancy to panic and snatch the trigger.

Response to David I dont believe the fundamentals change whether you are shooting 50 meter precision, Single target 25 yards, Or any of the ISSF events. What has to change is technique to suit the specific competition. But all require the shooter to deliver the shot on target using the same fundamental approach. Its a shame our police officers dont seem to understand how this is accomplished. The street gits extremely when their pistol is pulled from their holster. Good Shooting Bill Horton