TargetTalk

I am relatively new to air pistol shooting, but the fact is that i have concentrated on sight allignment and good trigger squeeze and therefore resulted in my getting upto 550( with mostly 9's) but now for the p[ast few weeks my scores have not improved above this in spite of concentrating only on the basics. (probably my arc movement has not reduced considerabily). some valuable advice would be appreciated.

Get use to it. everyone occures this the only difference is at what point. I was getting some scores in the 550s within about 5 months of shooting. then i plateaud for a few months, then i got into the high 560s and I havent improved my good scores much for the past 8 months but my bad scores are getting better and better. eventually I will make the jump into the 570s and hopefully I wont look back. It just takes time. My father plateaud around 525 with a pb of 525 in free and couldnt beet it for months and then one day he shot a 555 and after that could keep doing it

bharath wrote:(probably my arc movement has not reduced considerabily)

What are you doing to improve this. It doesn't matter how good your sight alignment and trigger release are; if you are not holding the pistol still enough then you will have an uphill struggle.

David Levene wrote:It doesn't matter how good your sight alignment and trigger release are; if you are not holding the pistol still enough then you will have an uphill struggle.

David - or anyone else with a good idea,

How would someone train for a steadier hold without, at the same time, training to look at the target? It seems that all the hold-building exercises I've seen involve monitoring the hold steadiness by observing sight movement against some target or pattern. But that would seem to simultaneously train the shooter to look past the front sight and at the target. Is there a better way?

Thanks,
FredB

It seems to me that a relaxed muscle is stiller than a tense muscle.Also try not to fight the pistol trying to hold it stiller. Let the pistol become stiller be relaxing the muscles not directly involved in holding the pistol in its firing position. As to training with weights I suggest using the pistol you are going to compete with and just hold it in firing position for longer and longer periods of time. This will build the stamina you need for a long match and you are holding the thing you are going to be shooting. I stress using the same grip while weight training as I do when shooting as propper grip is too valuable a comodity to recklessly jepordise. Good Shooting Bill Horton

FredB wrote:

David Levene wrote:It doesn't matter how good your sight alignment and trigger release are; if you are not holding the pistol still enough then you will have an uphill struggle.

David - or anyone else with a good idea,

How would someone train for a steadier hold without, at the same time, training to look at the target?

The ability to hold the pistol steady is not all related to what you do with a gun in your hand.

Improving general fitness can work wonders, as can general strength improvements.

I am not suggesting shooters should all start doing bench presses with heavy weights but there are simple things that can be done without too much disturbance to everyday life. What worked for me, but might not work for everyone, was to wear strap-on ankle weights on each wrist during normal daytime activities. I started with 0.5kg weights but changed to 1kg weights. Wearing those (during non-shooting activities) for a few hours at a time helped me without needing to devote any special time to it.

In an article that he wrote about using Scatt, Alexander Kudelin wrote:

Physiology tells us that:

1.Vision can be improved very marginally

2.Squeezing the trigger, which is dependent on time of reaction, can also be improved only marginally. Reaction time being 0.3-0.2 of a second with very little change of improving to 0.15 seconds.

3.Stability then becomes the one that has the most potential for improvement.

and:

The muscles have sensors, which send information to the brain about level of tension and position. Children have fewer sensors than adults and gradually develop additional sensors. Shooters also can develop additional sensors as they train.

The brain sends commands to muscles to hold the rifle or pistol, if commands are of good quality (amplitude and frequency) stability is achieved.

Humans receive most of the information they need through visual (eyes). So the brain directs most of the attention to the eyes. But to achieve and improve stability we need to send most of our attention to muscles. Therefore, we must eliminate the visual by closing our eyes or aim to white background. This is possible to do with or without a rifle or pistol.

I don't know if there is any value to this, but it seems to make sense. The full article can be found at:

http://www.scatt.com/articles.htm

I intend to give it a try myself.

Regards,

Al B.

David , I would also use ankle weights if I could find some way to shoot a ten with them. I am convinced that the most direct way to a stiller hold is to use the pistol I am training to shoot. I'm not trying to be a smart axx about this but it worked so well for me that I am compelled to sugest this method over any other that I have come in contact with. Good Shooting Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:David , I would also use ankle weights if I could find some way to shoot a ten with them. I am convinced that the most direct way to a stiller hold is to use the pistol I am training to shoot.

You might get a few raised eyebrows if you tried going for a walk, driving a car, going into a shop, or any other day-to-day activities with a gun in your hand.

If you don't do anything during the day apart from shoot then you could be right, but most of us live in the real world. Wrist worn ankle weights can be a convenient additional way of toning muscles without taking any additional time.

I considered ankle weights, but they looked bulky & like they would be uncomfortable to wear for long. The ones I tried on tended to slide around on the wrist, which I would find annoying. I've been using weighted gloves from this outfit:

http://www.drazathletics.com/

I mostly wear one on my shooting hand while commuting back & forth to work. I drive a stick shift, and with city driving, I get a good light workout. The weight varies with the size of the glove, but the medium is a bit more than the weight of many target pistols (1.45 kg = 3.2 lbs).

bharath wrote:I am relatively new to air pistol shooting, but the fact is that i have concentrated on sight allignment and good trigger squeeze and therefore resulted in my getting upto 550( with mostly 9's) but now for the p[ast few weeks my scores have not improved above this in spite of concentrating only on the basics. (probably my arc movement has not reduced considerabily). some valuable advice would be appreciated.

and

Anonymous wrote:Get use to it. everyone occures this the only difference is at what point. I was getting some scores in the 550s within about 5 months of shooting. then i plateaud for a few months, then i got into the high 560s and I havent improved my good scores much for the past 8 months but my bad scores are getting better and better. eventually I will make the jump into the 570s and hopefully I wont look back. It just takes time. My father plateaud around 525 with a pb of 525 in free and couldnt beet it for months and then one day he shot a 555 and after that could keep doing it

You will need to make a change in your shot plan. A plateau signifies you have reached the limit for some aspect in your routine. This can be difficult to do sometimes, especially if it is an item that gave you a previous lift.

FredB wrote:

David Levene wrote:It doesn't matter how good your sight alignment and trigger release are; if you are not holding the pistol still enough then you will have an uphill struggle.

David - or anyone else with a good idea,

How would someone train for a steadier hold without, at the same time, training to look at the target? It seems that all the hold-building exercises I've seen involve monitoring the hold steadiness by observing sight movement against some target or pattern. But that would seem to simultaneously train the shooter to look past the front sight and at the target. Is there a better way?

Thanks,
FredB

My preferred method is to use horizontal and vertical lines placed only a couple of inches from the muzzle. At that distance your focus will still be at the front sight. I also support the idea that you should not do holding drills against a bull, because it can teach you to hold against the bull without shooting. You should do dry firing against the bull.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Regular posters may have noticed that I often refer to Ed Hall's posts as I believe he is consistantly correct in his comments and his sugestions are valuable contributions to our passion. David and I have disagreed on occasion but agree most of the time. JackB is also insightful and his posts are often thought provoking. Steve Swartz is the man I would go to for guidance on training matters. I regret that I cannot get every poster that contributes ideas and recomendations to the shooters that rely on this forum for information the credit they all deserve. This is for the orriginal poster. Keep shooting and don't get discouraged . Talk to other shooters or a qualified coach about shooting techniques. The shooting will ecentually result in a stiller pistol .Sooner or later you will find it necessary to modify your shot sequence before a substancial improvement will occur. Doing the same thing over and over is IMHO not going to produce the break through you are seeking. Good Shooting Bill Horton

This post made me think about my general stability. My son has a Wii with a fitness board. You stand on the board and it provides a measure of the stability of your stance. I tried it and found I had a pronounced "lean" to the back and right. I then tried the board with my pistol raised into a shooting position - again I was off centre. By repeating the "test" and repositioning my weight I was able to find a comfortable balanced shooting stance I am working on to become habitual. Whether this has any any shooting benefits is yet to be determined but it certainly made me realise there is more to a good hold than just having a steady arm. Any comments/thoughts?

Anonymous wrote:Whether this has any any shooting benefits is yet to be determined but it certainly made me realise there is more to a good hold than just having a steady arm. Any comments/thoughts?

I agree 100%.

My observations over the years are that most pistol shooters have a steadier arm (in relation to the upper torso) than even they realise. What can be surprising however is the amount of movement of the upper torso, caused by anything from the ground up.

bharath wrote:I am relatively new to air pistol shooting, but the fact is that i have concentrated on sight allignment and good trigger squeeze and therefore resulted in my getting upto 550( with mostly 9's) but now for the p[ast few weeks my scores have not improved above this in spite of concentrating only on the basics. (probably my arc movement has not reduced considerabily). some valuable advice would be appreciated.

In addition to all the other excellent advice you have received, here's another observation. Let's say (and you do say ;) ) that your training so far has resulted in top notch sight alignment and trigger control. If I were to guess, and especially given your scores, sight alignment and trigger control have become or are very soon to become subconscious and automatic.

As you continue training, your mind is now free to focus on other aspects of what's going on in the shot process and if I were to bet, I'd bet that you'll start to naturally become much more aware of aspects beyond the sights and trigger. I'm not a coach so I don't feel qualified to point you in a specific direction other than what seems obvious as your next developmental steps -- grip and hold -- and I pick these because these are the aspects I recall gaining awareness and control of after sights and trigger. It's a matter of the muscles controlling your hand and arm/shoulder. As an exercise, this portion of your stance can be isolated a step at a time.

I'm sure (actually hopeful -- I'd also like to pick up some good drills) that the experts can give you better drills, but in the meantime think about trying these on different training days as part of a training routine for the day.

Start with wrist on a rest. Make sure your grip is absolutely identical in tension for each shot, throughout the shot. Try shooting strings with a lighter grip tension and strings with a firmer grip tension with the goal being absolute consistency during the shot and shot to shot within a string.

Next, elbow resting on table. This gets your wrist more involved.

Next, torso leaning against a stationary object. Goal is to isolate arm/shoulder from torso.

Next, seated.

Now the whole shebang from standing.

The idea is to develop a feel for better isolating the muscles that actually aim, hold and discharge the pistol while relaxing those muscles that really just interfere with the process. It seems to be more of a feeling than something very consciously done but you will feel it as you continue on with more time shooting.

The only analogy I've been able to come up with for what's going on is it's like a child learning not to wet themselves. Over time you get more sophisticated control over particular muscles through nerves or brain (however the biology of it actually works) as the body adapts to what it is you are trying to do.

Anonymous wrote:This post made me think about my general stability. My son has a Wii with a fitness board. You stand on the board and it provides a measure of the stability of your stance. I tried it and found I had a pronounced "lean" to the back and right. I then tried the board with my pistol raised into a shooting position - again I was off centre. By repeating the "test" and repositioning my weight I was able to find a comfortable balanced shooting stance I am working on to become habitual. Whether this has any any shooting benefits is yet to be determined but it certainly made me realise there is more to a good hold than just having a steady arm. Any comments/thoughts?

Not a bad idea if you've got the gear.

The traditional alternative is of course a wobble board (with a shallow curve, just enough to tell you if you're off-balance, not so much as to roll over and dump you on the floor!). I believe this is a staple of rifle shooters in assessing their core stability in the standing position. I've also seen this picture of someone shooting air rifle from a length of 2x4:


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thanks all for the real good advice