TargetTalk

I have a couple of new shooters to bullseye that are pretty green to shooting and the fundimentals are not quite there yet.
They have been shooting with irons and I was thinking of suggesting to try a red dot.
Another experianced shooter suggested to work with irons to better trigger control which I think is somewhat true.
I am on the fence weather I should point them that way or not.
Thoughts??

I would argue that irons would be much much better. Use of a red dot is going to make "wobble" much more apparent to the shooters, with the result that they'll probably try to snatch shots rather than have a smooth trigger release.

The only thought I have on snaching a shot while wobblng is with the irons they may have pretty good trigger control just are not paying close enough attention to the sights to see the wobble.
I may try to have them go back and forth because I think the red dot helps show more but the irons helps with trigger control.
thoughts? bad idea?

Let's look at the big picture....

Who wants a bigass red-dot hanging off their gun if they can help it.

Perhaps for bullseye a red-dot is OK, but for packing, International Pistol, or hunting it's useless or a nuisance. Iron sights always work. Go to any match and you'll see the opposite isn't true.

You can easily go from iron sights to a red-dot, but the reverse is not true; iron sights require more training.

That being said, I use a red-dot for Bullseye, but for nothing else.

The answer is easy. Try both. See which if either gives better results. A limiting factor is their vision and available lenses. In the end, they should learn both. Start with blank targets.

Check the Bullseye-L listerver discussions and you will see this question has a rich history of shouting, arm waving, personal insults, and garmetn rending!

In other words, the answer is "It Depends!"

Two critical behaviors need to be worked on to develop perfect trigger control: physically manipulating the trigger without disturbing the gun, and learning how to break the shot against a target. They are DIFFERENT THINGS! But "Trigger COntrol" is made up of BOTH of them.

For dry fire training to develop trigger feel and manipulation, the dot will MAGNIFY any errors in your triggering. If you can drop the hammer without making the dot bounce, you have perfected trigger manipulation.

But that doesn't do squat for trigger release . . .

For integrated shot release training, the iron sights will mask your errors in alignment, making it a heck of a lot easier to release the shots and avoid chicken finger.

So

Train on both. Your shooter should be doing seated/supported dry fire against a neutral backdrop with the dot. This will develop the "feel" of perfect trigger control with respect to grip, position of finger on trigger, directionality of how you squeeze, speed, smoothness, etc. The dot is also great for holding drills etc.

Use of the irons will make it a whole lot easier for the shooter to train for sight alignment/recognizing good shot breaks, etc. Any live fire (or dry fire against a bullseye) should be done with the irons; as the USMC preaches, the shooter must be "Shooting for Group, Not for Score" initially.

Once the shooter can shoot inside a 9 ring sized circle (against a blank target) slow fire at 50 yards, then the shooter and coach can determine which equipment configuration would be best for competition.

The USMC starts with irons, and the shooter has to "earn" the dot.

That's a pretty darned good way to look at it, IMNSHO!

Steve

If you can shoot inside the 9 ring, slow fire, at 50 yds, you'll probably be Master class. I doubt a lot of us can do that.

I support what Steve wrote, but would like to add a couple things:

Eyesight matters - if they can't see the open sights clearly, they won't progress well.

I always suggest beginners approach the dot sight in the same manner as opens - use the dot to tube relationship as you would front to rear for opens. This will show you what is happening at the gun, which is the important activity. It will also reduce the perceived motion. I encourage newer shooters to use the dot to tube relationship as a trigger purity indicator to develop their manipulation of the trigger.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Ed: Thanks for the valuable addition! Many of us "elderly" shooters (yikes!) *can* shoot better with a dot due to this effect. And I like the idea of using dot-in-tube as a surrogate for "alignment" (although quibblers will note the parallax issue).

Guest: Here's a thought- trained properly, *everybody* (barring physical disability) can shoot 9 ring slow fire groups at 50 yards. The fact that not everybody *does* is more a testament to the individual misperceptions about and perhaps lack of guidance on what constitutes "proper training" in the first place. Well okay, it probably has a lot to do with focus on training and the amount of time the shooter spends training as well. It's generally considered a combination of both effort (spending enough time training) and focus (training the right way) that will get you the results you want. And, perhaps due to genetics, not everyone will be able to clean the long line consistently but mid-90s are possible for pretty much everyone.

Not everyone agrees of course! My guess is that most/all of the shooters currently *not* shooting 9 ring groups at 50 yards would prefer a different answer than "train better, train more" . . . and so it goes.

Hunkered down for flamage (again),
Steve

I think if you are relying on a red dot to learn shooting, you are missing the fundamentals. You are trying to BUY a score with money rather than hard work - that is practice and training.

Well I think alot of what was said confirms what I was thinking...
Training with both will help.
I have been a rifle shooter and a rifle coach for many years but I have been shooting bullseye pistol for a much shorter time so I appriciate the help and thoughts.
I have mixed it up with rifle in the past with alot of success.
what I am hoping to get is the shooters to see there poor trigger control.
I think a dot shows poor trigger contol much better than irons.

I recently decided to make it one of my goals to become a Distinguished shooter. After shooting red dot and iron for a about 2 years I have taken off my red dots and am now shooting all iron all the time. Although it wasn't pretty at first, my groups are coming together and my scores are approaching the red dot. The iron is much less forgiving, at least for me, but in the end it will be worth it.

To me, becoming distinguished is worth the time and effort. At the end of the day, progressing through the NRA classification system really isn't that important (for me). In my opinion, if you want to stay competitive in the NRA game, then I think the Red Dot is a must. It all depends upon your own individual goals.

Steve Swartz as Guest wrote:Ed: Thanks for the valuable addition! Many of us "elderly" shooters (yikes!) *can* shoot better with a dot due to this effect. And I like the idea of using dot-in-tube as a surrogate for "alignment" (although quibblers will note the parallax issue).

Guest: Here's a thought- trained properly, *everybody* (barring physical disability) can shoot 9 ring slow fire groups at 50 yards. The fact that not everybody *does* is more a testament to the individual misperceptions about and perhaps lack of guidance on what constitutes "proper training" in the first place. Well okay, it probably has a lot to do with focus on training and the amount of time the shooter spends training as well. It's generally considered a combination of both effort (spending enough time training) and focus (training the right way) that will get you the results you want. And, perhaps due to genetics, not everyone will be able to clean the long line consistently but mid-90s are possible for pretty much everyone.

Not everyone agrees of course! My guess is that most/all of the shooters currently *not* shooting 9 ring groups at 50 yards would prefer a different answer than "train better, train more" . . . and so it goes.

Hunkered down for flamage (again),
Steve

I agree completely. The object is to shoot tens (or nines or whatever it is you truely believe you should and can hit). That is what you are supposed to do. So do it, right? I think I progressed much more quickly with the simple belief and understanding that the gun can hit it and therefore so should I as its operator.

Once I discovered how "hard" so many people think that is, my progress slowed considerably (what I think happens is you start to subconsciously mentally accept nines and eights and sevens and . . . worse on occasion because after all a ten is just sooo difficult that how could mere mortal I do it, etc. -- and you start to let yourself get away with some degree of lazy or lack of a true intensity of focus on the task at hand -- or as destructive, get wrapped up and completely distracted by complex technical crap that doesn't amount to a hill of beans). When I return to that simple and naive belief that the gun can hit it and therefore so can I with nothing more complicated than returning to the basics of what makes that process "work," it all works.

Accept nothing less than the very best you can possibly do and you will do that. If that means you will truely accept no less than nines and tens, and will train with that as the goal, then that is what you will much more quickly learn to do.

Back to the original question: I can't say much about the dots versus irons debate other than IMHO a new shooter should learn on irons even if for nothing more than tradition and to instill the added discipline I think shooting iron sights well requires. To add novelty and variety (what we humans often instictively crave) mix in some shooting with red dots or even scopes to keep things interesting. Maybe even go as far as to explain specifically what it is you are trying to train and let the individuals decide for themselves if one way or the other is helping them see and understand what you want them to learn? ;)

little_doodie wrote:I have a couple of new shooters to bullseye that are pretty green to shooting and the fundimentals are not quite there yet.
They have been shooting with irons and I was thinking of suggesting to try a red dot.
Another experianced shooter suggested to work with irons to better trigger control which I think is somewhat true.
I am on the fence weather I should point them that way or not.
Thoughts??

I think the responses here have lost track that the subject "new shooters" are "pretty green" to fundamentals. It is probably too early to plan on Olympic tryouts. Know what I mean?

I stand by my previous post. Keep it simple. Do what is most comfortable and productive learning for the "new shooters".

??????

New shooters should train on irons/dot/both as discussed above. Consider the pros and cons of each and integrate them into the shooters training program.

At what level are we supposed to "start" teaching the fundamentals?

Why not Day 1?

Steve

I think I may give the dot a try with them...
I am thinking there trigger control needs alot of work.
If I can make them realize there trigger issues I think we will go far.

I will try the blank target.

Red dots are for us old guys and kids with bad eyes. Keep it simple as Jack H. has advised. For a breif example I once put a trigger shoe on a 1911. It came loose in the middle of a major match, I threw it in the range trash barrel and never looked back. Good Shooting Bill Horton

update on the "green shooters"
I had them try the red dot and the lady took to it very well but her husband did not fair as well.
The lady went from bairly hitting the paper to all ten in scoring rings.
I think had her foucus on trigger control and follow through.
I am pretty sure she realized what she was doing wrong.
I still think the trigger control needs to be addressed with her husband.
The couple is in there late 30's early 40's so eyesight is not failing yet but may be some what a factor.
I'm in my early 40's and irons can be an issue with me.

Thanks for the input and advise