For 6 months I have been using the pistol below to shoot air through a SCATT. The best score for the 6 months was 560 and I was lucky to get it. Generally I shot somewhere between 530 and 545. Now I use the term pistol loosely because I put it together from bits and pieces in the garage, a grip from a 22 and a trigger assembly from hell. The gun weights 1.2kg and the trigger pulls 650gms.
Now take the same person, same gun and just move the weight from the grip to in front of the trigger and add one day; I shoot a 583. A fluke? For the past 3 days since each match has resulted in a 580+.
Why?
Why?
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Interesting comment. Although it begs the question - if you can improve your score by 20 points instantly by adding weight to the front end why don't most shooters add the weight and well... grin. Maybe their new Popeye forearms would give them away. No offence but surely there has to be more to it than that.
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steve swartz as guest
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Bob from Richmond
Steve - I've got to fess up - the gun doesn't shoot anything but infra-red. The barrel has a depth of about 3mm. I'm also shooting at a reduced distance with a scaled back target size (Scatt automatically measures the distance and allows you to print scaled targets - nice feature). I left the sport 5 years ago - detailed in another post - but shot for 14 years before that and shot at a lot of competitions over those years and was never aware of the "anchor syndrome" - maybe I should have taken a keener interest in what was happening around me.
Bob's comment is an interesting one and if correct adds another expense to shooting - that of therapy or equivalent. I would hate to think the 20 point difference in score improvement detailed above (probably greater if you take my previous average into account) is due to head south like the stock market purely because my head won't be able to handle it. I know what it feels like to be in a competition, one shot to go, you only need a 9 to win the competition and as you raise the gun the thought "I surely don't want to shoot an eight about now" comes to mind.... but dropping 20+ points... maybe more weight ;)
Maybe it just has to be the weight - perhaps I just lucked onto the right amount of weight placed in the right position for that gun. Maybe each gun has some optimal combination for both. I would like to experiment further but am enjoying my newfound honeymoon period too much... I might be forced to later if Bob is right.
Anyone have any other ideas???
Bob's comment is an interesting one and if correct adds another expense to shooting - that of therapy or equivalent. I would hate to think the 20 point difference in score improvement detailed above (probably greater if you take my previous average into account) is due to head south like the stock market purely because my head won't be able to handle it. I know what it feels like to be in a competition, one shot to go, you only need a 9 to win the competition and as you raise the gun the thought "I surely don't want to shoot an eight about now" comes to mind.... but dropping 20+ points... maybe more weight ;)
Maybe it just has to be the weight - perhaps I just lucked onto the right amount of weight placed in the right position for that gun. Maybe each gun has some optimal combination for both. I would like to experiment further but am enjoying my newfound honeymoon period too much... I might be forced to later if Bob is right.
Anyone have any other ideas???
I documented a situation similar, early in my AP shooting career -about months ago ;-)
I was working to build up muscle/stamina and thought I was being so clever by taping a tin of pellets to the front of pistol.
I did this for about 6 weeks. My scores went up quickly. About a week before a PTO, I took the tin of pellets off believing I was about to add a bunch of extra points to my score.
Unfortunately, what I saw was the front sight bouncing and dancing around like I was on a pure caffeine diet. Needless to say, my scores dropped for a while. They did return after a week of hard work without the weight.
It could be that you and your scores are better with a nose heavy pistol. It's simply easier for you to shoot.
I think the real tale will be with an actual AP, at 10 meters. Put the weight out front and see how you do. I have all my weights as far forward as possible and _really_ like the way I shoot with them there.
Oz
I was working to build up muscle/stamina and thought I was being so clever by taping a tin of pellets to the front of pistol.
I did this for about 6 weeks. My scores went up quickly. About a week before a PTO, I took the tin of pellets off believing I was about to add a bunch of extra points to my score.
Unfortunately, what I saw was the front sight bouncing and dancing around like I was on a pure caffeine diet. Needless to say, my scores dropped for a while. They did return after a week of hard work without the weight.
It could be that you and your scores are better with a nose heavy pistol. It's simply easier for you to shoot.
I think the real tale will be with an actual AP, at 10 meters. Put the weight out front and see how you do. I have all my weights as far forward as possible and _really_ like the way I shoot with them there.
Oz
Some of it is muscle tone, strength, etc., but some of it is simple physics.
A pistol wobbles due to motion in the wrist, elbow, shoulder etc. If you twitch, it imparts a force to the pistol. The pistol will accelerate proportional to this force, but the acceleration gets divided by the mass of the pistol. For rotational forces, how fast the muzzle swings gets divided by the moment of inertia, which is a function of mass, and how far the mass is from the pivot point.
You may not be able to hold it up stably due to muscle issues, but for a given mass (weight) of pistol, the more you can park as far forward of the pivot (i.e. the wrist), the less it will move for a given disturbing force. The trick is finding a weight distribution that maximizes the stability of your hold for a full match. This will be when the mass is as far forward as possible without increasing muscle strain or fatigue to the point that the disturbing forces grow more than the increased moment of inertia suppresses the resulting motion.
I also shoot highpower rifle, all standing (offhand). I have a 308 that weighs 14 pounds, with a foam filled fiberglass stock. As long as I don't fatigue from holding it up, having almost all of the weight in the barrel makes it MUCH more stable than my 14 pound 223 "space gun" which a lot more weight in the stock & action.
A pistol wobbles due to motion in the wrist, elbow, shoulder etc. If you twitch, it imparts a force to the pistol. The pistol will accelerate proportional to this force, but the acceleration gets divided by the mass of the pistol. For rotational forces, how fast the muzzle swings gets divided by the moment of inertia, which is a function of mass, and how far the mass is from the pivot point.
You may not be able to hold it up stably due to muscle issues, but for a given mass (weight) of pistol, the more you can park as far forward of the pivot (i.e. the wrist), the less it will move for a given disturbing force. The trick is finding a weight distribution that maximizes the stability of your hold for a full match. This will be when the mass is as far forward as possible without increasing muscle strain or fatigue to the point that the disturbing forces grow more than the increased moment of inertia suppresses the resulting motion.
I also shoot highpower rifle, all standing (offhand). I have a 308 that weighs 14 pounds, with a foam filled fiberglass stock. As long as I don't fatigue from holding it up, having almost all of the weight in the barrel makes it MUCH more stable than my 14 pound 223 "space gun" which a lot more weight in the stock & action.
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deadeyedick
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Thanks to those people who posted a reply. I just finished another AP shoot - the first since my post yesterday - a 589 (proof attached). It has to be the weight brought forward - I don't care anymore I only know I love it. The real fun starts when I get my own AP in the next 6 weeks or so - hopefully it too will have a sweet spot for a little extra weight. Then its a matter of going out to the range, facing off to a real target at 10 metres with real pellets and seeing if I can duplicate some of these scores.
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Keep us updated.Pabs wrote:Thanks to those people who posted a reply. I just finished another AP shoot - the first since my post yesterday - a 589 (proof attached). It has to be the weight brought forward - I don't care anymore I only know I love it. The real fun starts when I get my own AP in the next 6 weeks or so - hopefully it too will have a sweet spot for a little extra weight. Then its a matter of going out to the range, facing off to a real target at 10 metres with real pellets and seeing if I can duplicate some of these scores.
Do you adjust the sights during a "match" or just go with the same setting from practice to practice?
Dogchaser
Area aim is the only adjustment my "gun" has ;)
SCATT though has the facility to move the last shot - a case of click and drag. If you shoot a good shot - you know it when you have one; it feels good - but if it is off to the left you click and drag it (the actual shot) to where you think it should have gone. My system seems to remember where it was from the last session. I have not had to purposely change it for the last couple of weeks. Lately I have been shooting the same set up whichever match I am shooting (SCATT offers lots of matches - don't get me started on Centre Fire - I love it).
deadeyedick suggested I move my sights a click or two left - if you look at both printouts he is absolutely correct but I chose not to. I want to leave the setup as it is to monitor my performance... well, until my new gun arrives.
Updates - if you are interested why not. Although if Bob from Richmond is correct - it could be very embarrassing. If you want to post your email address as a reply I'll send you a weekly update
Area aim is the only adjustment my "gun" has ;)
SCATT though has the facility to move the last shot - a case of click and drag. If you shoot a good shot - you know it when you have one; it feels good - but if it is off to the left you click and drag it (the actual shot) to where you think it should have gone. My system seems to remember where it was from the last session. I have not had to purposely change it for the last couple of weeks. Lately I have been shooting the same set up whichever match I am shooting (SCATT offers lots of matches - don't get me started on Centre Fire - I love it).
deadeyedick suggested I move my sights a click or two left - if you look at both printouts he is absolutely correct but I chose not to. I want to leave the setup as it is to monitor my performance... well, until my new gun arrives.
Updates - if you are interested why not. Although if Bob from Richmond is correct - it could be very embarrassing. If you want to post your email address as a reply I'll send you a weekly update
Out of curiosity, what is the range to the target (you mentioned it is a reduced range) ? What is the ceiling height of the room ? And one last question what is the L value of your shots ?
I'm asking all this since I experienced unrealistic readings from my scatt (way better than my actual performance) and I suspect that in certain environemntal conditions the results may be wrong.
Can you attach the scatt file instead of the image ?
BTW, you are shooting extra fast !! 24min for 60 shots
I'm asking all this since I experienced unrealistic readings from my scatt (way better than my actual performance) and I suspect that in certain environemntal conditions the results may be wrong.
Can you attach the scatt file instead of the image ?
BTW, you are shooting extra fast !! 24min for 60 shots
Now it starts to get interesting...
Halela's post posed questions that might shed light on the my recent "good fortune" and potentially burst my bubble - but that was the reason for the original post being entitled "Why?". BTW the questions made me feel a bit like being pulled over by a traffic cop ;)
The answers are supplied in good faith; I look forward to a response
What is the range to the target
6 metres
Ceiling height
2.4 metres
what is the L value of your shots?
Had no idea what L value was until your question. Had to go on the net to look it up.... trace length. For those not familiar with SCATT it provides a trace of your hold prior to the shot being taken then follow thru. Mine is green, yellow, blue (the last .2 of a second before and thru to shot release) then red (follow thru). BTW please do not pick on me for my follow thru - I already know it should be tighter, much tighter
Can you attach the scatt file?
the file is attached. I'm not sure how TargetTalk handles SCATT files so if it doesn't take I will email it. You should be able to determine the L value from it. Despite the net search I'm still not sure which component of the trace makes up the L value.
24mins for 60 shots.
In fact, when you take into account I refuse maybe 20 shots during a match... it becomes 24mins for 80 shots. However there is no winder, no pellets to load and no range distractions (ie the competitor next to you who makes a funny noise each shot and you have to wait for him to shoot before you can even think to raise your gun).... I have become comfortable with the speed I shoot using SCATT.
I also know when I eventually get out to a range (if the response to these questions hasn't already burst my bubble) a lot of other "real world" factors will be lining up to have a go.
ps Halela... I have twice tried to attach the file but can't see it in preview mode. I will post this reply and if the file doesn't appear I will email it to your yahoo address - thanks for taking the time to review it
Halela's post posed questions that might shed light on the my recent "good fortune" and potentially burst my bubble - but that was the reason for the original post being entitled "Why?". BTW the questions made me feel a bit like being pulled over by a traffic cop ;)
The answers are supplied in good faith; I look forward to a response
What is the range to the target
6 metres
Ceiling height
2.4 metres
what is the L value of your shots?
Had no idea what L value was until your question. Had to go on the net to look it up.... trace length. For those not familiar with SCATT it provides a trace of your hold prior to the shot being taken then follow thru. Mine is green, yellow, blue (the last .2 of a second before and thru to shot release) then red (follow thru). BTW please do not pick on me for my follow thru - I already know it should be tighter, much tighter
Can you attach the scatt file?
the file is attached. I'm not sure how TargetTalk handles SCATT files so if it doesn't take I will email it. You should be able to determine the L value from it. Despite the net search I'm still not sure which component of the trace makes up the L value.
24mins for 60 shots.
In fact, when you take into account I refuse maybe 20 shots during a match... it becomes 24mins for 80 shots. However there is no winder, no pellets to load and no range distractions (ie the competitor next to you who makes a funny noise each shot and you have to wait for him to shoot before you can even think to raise your gun).... I have become comfortable with the speed I shoot using SCATT.
I also know when I eventually get out to a range (if the response to these questions hasn't already burst my bubble) a lot of other "real world" factors will be lining up to have a go.
ps Halela... I have twice tried to attach the file but can't see it in preview mode. I will post this reply and if the file doesn't appear I will email it to your yahoo address - thanks for taking the time to review it
It appears the file didn't arrive at TargetTalk for whatever reason. I emailed it to Halela. I decided to include my email message to him just to keep everything above board for those who, like me, would like to get to the bottom of this "weighty" issue ;)
Halela
It appears the SCATT file did not agree with TargetTalk.
I have attached the file to this email. I appreciate your questions in your original post and would like to get to the bottom of this added weight "saga". Thanks for taking the time to look at the file and I look forward to your considered response.
Please let me know the file arrived OK
cheers
Pabs
ps I would ask you keep my email address confidential and not pass it on to other parties without my prior consent
Halela
It appears the SCATT file did not agree with TargetTalk.
I have attached the file to this email. I appreciate your questions in your original post and would like to get to the bottom of this added weight "saga". Thanks for taking the time to look at the file and I look forward to your considered response.
Please let me know the file arrived OK
cheers
Pabs
ps I would ask you keep my email address confidential and not pass it on to other parties without my prior consent
Pabs,
I got the file and will take a look at it. You can upload only files with specific extensions to targettalk. Scatt is not one of them, what you can do is to zip it and attached the zipped file.
Don't take it the wrong way (my questions) I just tried to help. The fact that that kind of phenomenon happened to me just a week ago and I was puzzled to.
In my case I was convinced that the system is wrong since I can call my shots pretty well and I know +- what is my hold level.
Anyway the problem happened to me shooting at 6m with 220cm ceiling height (from scatt I got an answer that wrong readings can be caused by low ceiling that relects the sensor/target signal) with a 3 years old software version.
I suggest you try to use the latest version on a 10m range and see the results.
Your L is excellent staring with 64mm avg in sightings and continue with 70mm-80mm on the series. 70mm L is considered to be world class level.
I got the file and will take a look at it. You can upload only files with specific extensions to targettalk. Scatt is not one of them, what you can do is to zip it and attached the zipped file.
Don't take it the wrong way (my questions) I just tried to help. The fact that that kind of phenomenon happened to me just a week ago and I was puzzled to.
In my case I was convinced that the system is wrong since I can call my shots pretty well and I know +- what is my hold level.
Anyway the problem happened to me shooting at 6m with 220cm ceiling height (from scatt I got an answer that wrong readings can be caused by low ceiling that relects the sensor/target signal) with a 3 years old software version.
I suggest you try to use the latest version on a 10m range and see the results.
Your L is excellent staring with 64mm avg in sightings and continue with 70mm-80mm on the series. 70mm L is considered to be world class level.
Haleva
Thanks for the taking a quick look at the file; when you get the opportunity and the interest I would appreciate any feedback you care to provide.
For those who are unfamilar with SCATT, there isn't a lot of interpretative/analysis literature forthcoming from Russia. I emailed them early in the piece for anything that would help me the better use the system only to be told to find a coach. Good advice, but as a previous coach, admittedly only Level 1, I had no exposure to this sort of info or where to find it. Having Haleva come into the forum with insight into interpreting SCATT is like a breath of fresh air.
BTW I have been using SCATT Version 5.63 – I just downloaded V5.64 from the SCATT site and will shoot a match with it this afternoon.
Lets agree on a couple of things. Firstly, I have never been a 580+ shooter. "Back in the day" I regularly shot 560 +/- in training at the range and had one glorious moment, at a club championship, shooting a 570 - not before and never since - and I am definitely sure I am not one now. At 59 years, I am not likely to become one either. However, a simple thing like redistributing the weight on the gun has made an enormous difference in my confidence and, as you indicated, my hold. I lift the gun now and it just hangs in a perfect area aim position begging for a 10.
As you wrote the acid test will come at the range. Now the software/shed combination has been identified as the probable culprit I will take the SCATT gear, (computer, cables, extension cords, powerboard) and homebrew gun out to the range next week - probably Wednesday or Thursday - and run a comparison test – home Vs range. I will post the results.
Reading the forums on training systems like SCATT and Rika the consensus seems to be they are just that, training aids. Scores shot using the systems should not equated to those shot pushing real lead down a range. I am well aware I need real time practice on a range with a real gun. My permit to acquire should arrive in 2 to 3 weeks (to get a gun in Australia you need a licence then you have to apply for a permit to acquire one - both time consuming exercises). I will get a gun as soon after that as Gunshop supply permits and tune it at home on the SCATT. Then its a matter of taking it out to the range and seeing what happens.
Thanks for the tip about the zip file technique I will post it to the forum for anyone following this topic and interested to see what a SCATT session looks like. Again for those not familiar with SCATT you can download the software to view the file free of charge from www.scatt.com and follow the link to Software - the package you will be after is scatt564.exe.
Back at you Haleva with a couple of questions:
What part of the hold line were you looking at for the L value - the green, yellow or blue?
You indicated you had a similar experience. What happened? Had you coincidentally changed any part of your shooting process eg like my weight change, to make you think you had struck gold or was the score change suddenly there?
Thanks for the taking a quick look at the file; when you get the opportunity and the interest I would appreciate any feedback you care to provide.
For those who are unfamilar with SCATT, there isn't a lot of interpretative/analysis literature forthcoming from Russia. I emailed them early in the piece for anything that would help me the better use the system only to be told to find a coach. Good advice, but as a previous coach, admittedly only Level 1, I had no exposure to this sort of info or where to find it. Having Haleva come into the forum with insight into interpreting SCATT is like a breath of fresh air.
BTW I have been using SCATT Version 5.63 – I just downloaded V5.64 from the SCATT site and will shoot a match with it this afternoon.
Lets agree on a couple of things. Firstly, I have never been a 580+ shooter. "Back in the day" I regularly shot 560 +/- in training at the range and had one glorious moment, at a club championship, shooting a 570 - not before and never since - and I am definitely sure I am not one now. At 59 years, I am not likely to become one either. However, a simple thing like redistributing the weight on the gun has made an enormous difference in my confidence and, as you indicated, my hold. I lift the gun now and it just hangs in a perfect area aim position begging for a 10.
As you wrote the acid test will come at the range. Now the software/shed combination has been identified as the probable culprit I will take the SCATT gear, (computer, cables, extension cords, powerboard) and homebrew gun out to the range next week - probably Wednesday or Thursday - and run a comparison test – home Vs range. I will post the results.
Reading the forums on training systems like SCATT and Rika the consensus seems to be they are just that, training aids. Scores shot using the systems should not equated to those shot pushing real lead down a range. I am well aware I need real time practice on a range with a real gun. My permit to acquire should arrive in 2 to 3 weeks (to get a gun in Australia you need a licence then you have to apply for a permit to acquire one - both time consuming exercises). I will get a gun as soon after that as Gunshop supply permits and tune it at home on the SCATT. Then its a matter of taking it out to the range and seeing what happens.
Thanks for the tip about the zip file technique I will post it to the forum for anyone following this topic and interested to see what a SCATT session looks like. Again for those not familiar with SCATT you can download the software to view the file free of charge from www.scatt.com and follow the link to Software - the package you will be after is scatt564.exe.
Back at you Haleva with a couple of questions:
What part of the hold line were you looking at for the L value - the green, yellow or blue?
You indicated you had a similar experience. What happened? Had you coincidentally changed any part of your shooting process eg like my weight change, to make you think you had struck gold or was the score change suddenly there?
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- SCATT 07-05-09 13-46-16.zip
- (74.46 KiB) Downloaded 289 times
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
You have one ugly pistol !!!! But the proof that you have found something that works for you is the hits on the targets, I doubt if I would spend the money to upgrade my pistol with such outstanding performance using the ugly one you already have. Just consider the effect on the shooting world if you won gold or set a new record. The line would be over whelmed with copies of your creation. Good shooting with your ugly pistol. Bill Horton
I indicated earlier I am purchasing an air pistol in the coming weeks. Where I live there is little opportunity to "road test" pistols. I have had a preference for an LP50 - it would enable me to shoot other matches as well as air. I have read Steyr is bringing out an electronic trigger in a few months. Can anyone list or point me to a list of pros and cons of an electronic trigger over a manual one especially with respect to reliability and durability.
For those interested I shot on Friday and Saturday (583 & 582) - the "problem" is still there. It appears pointless to report further on my "ugly pistol" - thanks Bill, you must be a hit with the ladies, until I can shoot SCATT at the range later next week and experiment with this scoring anomaly business over 10 metres.
For those interested I shot on Friday and Saturday (583 & 582) - the "problem" is still there. It appears pointless to report further on my "ugly pistol" - thanks Bill, you must be a hit with the ladies, until I can shoot SCATT at the range later next week and experiment with this scoring anomaly business over 10 metres.