sight alignment problem in AP

[trinity]

I am having some sight alignment issues in AP. If I just close my eyes, relax, get into my stance, find a comfortable grip, raise the pistol, settle, open my eyes, what I see is shown in the picture below. (this is done on a blank wall, no target involved to be as natural as possible)

Essentially the entire sight is canted clockwise, and the front sight is left, a tiny bit high.

I assume this is the natural position my muscles wants to be in.

Some workarounds:
a) rotating my wrist counter-clockwise, and flexing the wrist a little to the right. This levels the gun and brings the front sight center.
b) move my head position (tilt) a little to the right. This brings the front sight center, but does not change the cant. But since my head is now tilted, the cant doesn't appear as significant.
c) wrap my thumb well over the thumb rest to provide rotational control, which also seems to push the front sight center. This levels the gun and brings the front sight center.

The issue with all these workarounds is it seems to put muscles into a contracted state, which means when I am fresh, I am able to have good stability. But as I fatigue, it becomes harder and harder to maintain that stability.

It is possible that with massive amounts of training, I can train the muscles to a new 'natural' position. But this has not occurred in the last 7 years. And I've had this issue on and off in varying degrees all this time.

What I am really want to know is, what is the root cause of this? Is it a weakness in my forearm muscles that naturally supinates? Is it the way I am gripping? Is it the grip set up? or something else?

-trinity

[GaryN]

For the front sight on the left, I would say a combination of how you are gripping the AP and the grip itself.

For the canting, that is an awful lot of cant. Is that cant angle accurate, or is it exagerated for showing that you do cant.

If I do a natural relaxed aim, my hand is canted at about 30 degrees to the left. If that is what you are taking about, then you have to use your muscles to align to vertical.

While you could shoot canted, the sight adjustments would be more difficult. Example; 5 clicks left is really 5 clicks at -30 degrees from left. So zeroing the pistol will be a pain in the neck.

[Isabel (as guest)]

Why do you think what is happening with your eyes closed is your natural point of aim? Open your eyes, line up the front sight post with your eye and your rear sight with the front sight with your eyes open. Then line up your sight/ eye/ body position with the target and practice that hold and your trigger squeeze with that point of aim until it becomes automatic. I don't believe anyone has a "natural point of aim". Your muscles and your trigger finger must be trained to do what you want and need them to do. Isabel.

[Rover]

It's a grip problem.

Put putty along the bottom of the grip inside the heel of the hand from the start of the fingers to the heel. This will straighten the gun up.

Add more higher on the grip by the heel to push the front sight to the right

This will remove the cant and center the sight. Address elevation if needed by removing wood near the wrist.

File and add putty as needed.

[kanedal]

While it most likely is a grip problem that could/will be fixed with some work on the grips it is also possible that an injury in your arm can cause this.
About 3/4 year ago i had a steady grip and canted sligthly the opposite way, and the hold as steady. Then after an injury in my upper-arm/biceps/shoulder due to armwrestling (silly thing) things changed. I started canting the other way (like you) and the results dropped dramaticly. Today the arm feels fine, a little lack of strength still, but getting there. The results are also getting up, but still some way to go.
And the cant? Well, now the cant is gone and i suspect that once the strength is back to full the cant will once again be like it was one year ago.
I think you should try what Rover suggest and see how that works.

[Rover]

DOH!

Had it backwards...you need to remove wood, not add putty to straighten up gun. You could also try adding putty near the top of the grip. Everything else was right.

It's pretty unusual to see what's happening with you. Usually it's tipped the other way.

I hope you're right handed.

[trinity]

DOH!

Had it backwards...you need to remove wood, not add putty to straighten up gun. You could also try adding putty near the top of the grip. Everything else was right.

It's pretty unusual to see what's happening with you. Usually it's tipped the other way.

I hope you're right handed.

Yes, I am right handed.

Where do I need to remove wood?

And by top of the grip, do you mean the overhang?

-trinity

[Rover]

You need to remove wood at the bottom of the grip so that the pistol will tip upright. By putting putty nearest your 1st finger will also do the same thing. Probably removing the wood is easier.

You can get a rasp that is round or elongated that will fit a cordless drill. They're cheap and really take the wood out in a hurry.

Keep playing with it. I work on my grips all the time, tweaking them a bit here and there. I know my world class shooter friends do the same thing.

You can't do anything wrong. Anything that doesn't work can be fixed. You want a relaxed , natural grip with the sights aligned. Where you point them is another thing. Small elevation errors can be fixed by raising and lowering your chin.

[Isabel1130]

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

go down to the bottom of this page and watch the M9 AMU video. Tell me that you don't see a pretty good cant to the gun in this video. :-) Isabel

[2650 Plus]

Trinity, the real problem with the diagram is ,,In my opinion, the miss aligned sights, not the cant. I once shot a competition with a russian shooter squaded down the line from me. His free pistol had the front and rear sight mounted on the left side of his TOZ and shot with his nuckles pointed up. He shot a 580 during the practice match. Sight allignment errors can be caused primarily by the way you take your grip, the shape of the grip, the ballance of the pistol, and your head position.I spent many hours in front of a full length mirrow sorting out the same issues you are having trouble with. See if the mirrow training can help you resolve the allignment problem first, Then If it still bothers you just straighten up the cant. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Philadelphia]

Why do you think what is happening with your eyes closed is your natural point of aim? Open your eyes, line up the front sight post with your eye and your rear sight with the front sight with your eyes open. Then line up your sight/ eye/ body position with the target and practice that hold and your trigger squeeze with that point of aim until it becomes automatic. I don't believe anyone has a "natural point of aim". Your muscles and your trigger finger must be trained to do what you want and need them to do. Isabel.

I've always wondered about this but in a different way. Would you elaborate on what you do to get in position? What you say here makes a lot of sense to me and I'd like to try it. Thanks.

Like the original poster, I often seem to naturally cant my wrist a little but in the opposite direction. As a shortcut I've been just sort of curving my back a little to compensate and straighten it out (I need to get out the dremel and some wood rasps, I know ;) ).

[Isabel1130]

Why do you think what is happening with your eyes closed is your natural point of aim? Open your eyes, line up the front sight post with your eye and your rear sight with the front sight with your eyes open. Then line up your sight/ eye/ body position with the target and practice that hold and your trigger squeeze with that point of aim until it becomes automatic. I don't believe anyone has a "natural point of aim". Your muscles and your trigger finger must be trained to do what you want and need them to do. Isabel.

I've always wondered about this but in a different way. Would you elaborate on what you do to get in position? What you say here makes a lot of sense to me and I'd like to try it. Thanks.

Like the original poster, I often seem to naturally cant my wrist a little but in the opposite direction. As a shortcut I've been just sort of curving my back a little to compensate and straighten it out (I need to get out the dremel and some wood rasps, I know ;) ).

They have been talking somewhat tangengicially about this over on the bullseye-L list. Most of what I have said here in a nut shell has been said in two diffferent places. The first is the Sievers book on pistol shooting where he states that you line up your shooting eye with the sights and then move your body into a position that is the most comfortable for you to hold that point of aim. His thoughts are that sight alignment with the eye is the fundamental part of pistol shooting because everyone's point of aim will change over the course of a match depending on how tired their are getting and a number of other factors. Sometimes that is why we have to adjust the sights during a match. Brian Zins and Andy Moody in their clinics state that almost eveyone can have a ten ring hold and a great number of people do. What disturbes the shot is poor trigger technique. A lot of people have trouble even balancing with their eyes closed. I would never even expect my sights to be lined up if I picked up the gun and leveled it with my eyes closed because using my dominant eye to align the sights is a fundamental part of the shot. They have done many studies on hold using the NOPTEL and other computer training devices. Some people with poor holds which wobble all over and out of the black still manage to pull off most of their shots well into the ten ring. Others with almost perfect holds will jerk the trigger or cause their sights to go out of alignment the moment they break the shot. I guess my point is that I see the issue of what the sight picture looks like when you atempt to close your eyes and level the gun as not particuarly relevant to the issue of what your sights are doing at the moment the trigger is pulled and the shot is headed down range. Isabel

[Philadelphia]

They have been talking somewhat tangengicially about this over on the bullseye-L list. Most of what I have said here in a nut shell has been said in two diffferent places. The first is the Sievers book on pistol shooting where he states that you line up your shooting eye with the sights and then move your body into a position that is the most comfortable for you to hold that point of aim. His thoughts are that sight alignment with the eye is the fundamental part of pistol shooting because everyone's point of aim will change over the course of a match depending on how tired their are getting and a number of other factors. Sometimes that is why we have to adjust the sights during a match. Brian Zins and Andy Moody in their clinics state that almost eveyone can have a ten ring hold and a great number of people do. What disturbes the shot is poor trigger technique. A lot of people have trouble even balancing with their eyes closed. I would never even expect my sights to be lined up if I picked up the gun and leveled it with my eyes closed because using my dominant eye to align the sights is a fundamental part of the shot. They have done many studies on hold using the NOPTEL and other computer training devices. Some people with poor holds which wobble all over and out of the black still manage to pull off most of their shots well into the ten ring. Others with almost perfect holds will jerk the trigger or cause their sights to go out of alignment the moment they break the shot. I guess my point is that I see the issue of what the sight picture looks like when you atempt to close your eyes and level the gun as not particuarly relevant to the issue of what your sights are doing at the moment the trigger is pulled and the shot is headed down range. Isabel

Interesting -- I interpret this along two conflicting lines of thought . . .

One (and this is what I've really had an "internal dialog" about for a long time), in any sort of "normal" reasonably comfortable shooting position with the alignment as you describe, a good shooter will deliver a good shot. All the minute shifting of feet and agonizing of precise stance is for naught. (?)

Two, there is a shooting position (either specifically or at least in general) specific to each shooter that will make it more "natural" and thus easier for the shooter to shoot his/her best, but the best way to find that position may not be the shop worn closed eyes exercise but instead with experimentation with the electronic trainer to see what works over the course of a simulated match.

Does any of the above capture what you mean?

PS: I think closing your eyes at least when dry firing does improve trigger control and bring awareness of many other factors (I do it when live firing too, but that's a different game ;) ). Using it to get in a "stance" has always given me trouble but I play with different methods. "Off the record," towards the end of a practice session I tend to give up on the "close eyes and do the precise stance dance" as a combination of laziness and an internal belief that it's largely irrelevant. :) If there is a better method that works, I would be in heaven.

Thanks.

[Isabel1130]

They have been talking somewhat tangengicially about this over on the bullseye-L list. Most of what I have said here in a nut shell has been said in two diffferent places. The first is the Sievers book on pistol shooting where he states that you line up your shooting eye with the sights and then move your body into a position that is the most comfortable for you to hold that point of aim. His thoughts are that sight alignment with the eye is the fundamental part of pistol shooting because everyone's point of aim will change over the course of a match depending on how tired their are getting and a number of other factors. Sometimes that is why we have to adjust the sights during a match. Brian Zins and Andy Moody in their clinics state that almost eveyone can have a ten ring hold and a great number of people do. What disturbes the shot is poor trigger technique. A lot of people have trouble even balancing with their eyes closed. I would never even expect my sights to be lined up if I picked up the gun and leveled it with my eyes closed because using my dominant eye to align the sights is a fundamental part of the shot. They have done many studies on hold using the NOPTEL and other computer training devices. Some people with poor holds which wobble all over and out of the black still manage to pull off most of their shots well into the ten ring. Others with almost perfect holds will jerk the trigger or cause their sights to go out of alignment the moment they break the shot. I guess my point is that I see the issue of what the sight picture looks like when you atempt to close your eyes and level the gun as not particuarly relevant to the issue of what your sights are doing at the moment the trigger is pulled and the shot is headed down range. Isabel

Interesting -- I interpret this along two conflicting lines of thought . . .

One (and this is what I've really had an "internal dialog" about for a long time), in any sort of "normal" reasonably comfortable shooting position with the alignment as you describe, a good shooter will deliver a good shot. All the minute shifting of feet and agonizing of precise stance is for naught. (?) YES absolutely!!!

Two, there is a shooting position (either specifically or at least in general) specific to each shooter that will make it more "natural" and thus easier for the shooter to shoot his/her best, but the best way to find that position may not be the shop worn closed eyes exercise but instead with experimentation with the electronic trainer to see what works over the course of a simulated match. Does any of the above capture what you mean? DOUBLE YES, an electronic trainer is probably the easiest way for you or someone else to actually see what you are doing as the shot breaks.


PS: I think closing your eyes at least when dry firing does improve trigger control and bring awareness of many other factors (I do it when live firing too, but that's a different game ;) ). Using it to get in a "stance" has always given me trouble but I play with different methods. "Off the record," towards the end of a practice session I tend to give up on the "close eyes and do the precise stance dance" as a combination of laziness and an internal belief that it's largely irrelevant. :) If there is a better method that works, I would be in heaven. I know guys who drive down the road to the next match working the trigger on their 45. That is something you can do without a target, learn your trigger. It is probably better in some respects than dry fire looking at a target IMHO because you are focusing on only one thing, the feel of the trigger and probably are not creating other bad habits unconciously in your dry fire routine.

Thanks.

[David Levene]

DOUBLE YES, an electronic trainer is probably the easiest way for you or someone else to actually see what you are doing as the shot breaks.

But it's much better when combined with an experienced coach actually watching you shoot.

[Isabel1130]

DOUBLE YES, an electronic trainer is probably the easiest way for you or someone else to actually see what you are doing as the shot breaks.

But it's much better when combined with an experienced coach actually watching you shoot.

Yes, it does take some experience watching and shooting on an electronic trainer to be able to read the results. Experienced coaches will pick up on reading the trainer quicker than less expereienced shooters.

[gordonfriesen]

Folks,

Egg-chicken/chicken-egg

What factor does one modify in order to get a natural sight alignment?

At one extreme, you just pick up the gun (as a rank beginner of course), and line up the sights. The pistol grips are a given. The angle of elbow and shoulder and wrist are traded off mutually without any plan and presto, the sights are in line.

The obvious problem is that there is no “repeatability”. So we start the long proccess of building a repeatable shooting platform. One way to go, is to straighten the elbow and find a body shoulder angle that is very stable. And one way to find that angle is with your eyes closed, deliberately refusing to be distracted by the sights. So now your arm and your body are very still and very comfortable.

But the obvious problem this time is that when you open your eyes, the sights are nowhere near aligned. And here you have to make a choice. Should you correct the sights by opening or closing the shoulder angle? Or should you do it by fiddling with your hand position, your wrist, and your pistol grips?

Isobel states that we should find that position which is the most natural and comfortable which allows us to properly align the sights and work the trigger. In other words, we will play around with all of the parameters, but always remember that without sight alignment stability is useless.

However, no one wants to have a hold that is any shakier than it needs to be, and if offerred a magic wand which would combine his best sight alignment and trigger angle with a rock steady ten ring hold, any one of us would jump at the chance.

A shaky hold is not a positive benefit or a badge of honor. And if the goal is to combine sights, hold and trigger, then it defintely makes sense to consider hold apart, with the eyes closed.

But let’s fast forward to the day that our shooter has an acceptable package which allows him to shoot tens, when--and this is the critical part--he is able to tap into that package. At this point, raising the gun with the eyes closed is a tried and true method of finding where you are balanced right now. The sights may be very close to true. The sights may be right on. Hopefully this is the case and then the only issue is rotation of the whole platform onto the bull by moving the feet. But that is a long and frustrating proccess. And as Philedelphia admits, most of us just end up cheating and going with some aproximation.

But then, with the eyes open, there will be a powerful urge to just go to the bull, correcting with a little bit of head, or a little bit of body sway, or whatever and then we are alarmed to see that there is too much movement in our hold. Honestly, I don`t think the correct response at that point lies in remembering that good shots can be made with a crappy hold. None of my best targets began with that premiss.

So how can we get the right body angle, even when we know it will be shifting through the match? I have just discovered a practical move which I think can help. Here is how it goes:

Raise the gun with your eyes open and your best sight alignment and all of those things you have trained your self to look for in the arm hand and body.

You should feel good and steady. You should also be very close to center, because you have been practicing this for years.

Now, with some little body sway (whatever you choose to use for fine adjustment but not the shoulder arm or hand) move off a little to one side of the bull, and then cross back over the bull to the other side. When you do this, you may notice that it is easy to maintain control on one side, but difficult on the other. This is the sign that your control zone is not centered. So you move your feet.

This method seems to combine the benefit of eyes closed and eyes open. It allows you to start right away with a useful sight picture, and by deliberately moving the platform, it will reveal when that platform is optimally directed. This is better than just asking yourself whether you feel good., because it shows whether you would feel better shifting your feet, which is why we used the closed eyes raise routine.


I have actually begun doing this on individual shots. Raise. Right. Left. Middle. Top of Bull. Descend. Fire. If there is any problem with the coincidence of the zone, I abort and move.

In my warm up, I still start with closed eye raise. But I soon move on to eyes open as described.

Best regards,

Gordon

[Rover]

On the other hand...

You may have turned your arm clockwise to "lock" it.

Just straighten it up. That will probably align the sight, too.

[2650 _Plus]

This has already been included in an earlier post, but bares repeating. The only place where the sights must be properly alligned is when the pistol is raised to the line of sight on the aiming area of the target. [Just ask Raggnar] Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Philadelphia]

This is really great stuff and I have to thank Trinty for starting the discussion.

Having wasted a lot of time discovering for myself essentially the invention of the wheel (albeit in crude form), what everyone has added shows why one really must have a good coach. The best I can do for myself is that I now resolve to find a good shooting partner so we can at least coach each other.

Given all that's been put down here, it's all actually starting to make sense (which is what made "discovering the wheel" not a complete waste of time because without the rigor of having had to do that, I doubt I would have any idea of what you are all talking about).

To try to synthesize all this (and as a "straw man" for further discussion) here's what I think I see:

There is no NPA or natural stance. There is an ideal shooting platform particular not only to each shooter but to each shot, which includes the details of stance, hold and grip. Let's call this the ISP.

The ISP can be a very wide range of actual positions, especially when a shooter is fresh and it widens with regular training. What Gordon describes as that control zone and how to get well into it. Gordon's method makes a lot more sense and is far more appealing than the old close eyes to find "the spot." As Isabell points out, as long as you are in that control zone, you need not agonize over exactly where in the zone you are and the electronic trainer can help one to find your individual zone and find methods that work to repeatably get into the zone. Given that it's really a zone and not what amounts to a particular pose at the target, and it will change not only from day to day but over the course of a day as a shooter tires, it's now clear to me why it's hard for new shooters to find it. "It" is not an "it" and when one goes looking for a one specific "it," the odds are fairly certain that "it" will never be found leaving the searcher well confused. :)

Steve adds the truth that tends to get forgotten in the technical weeds we may too often allow ourselves to wander through: that what counts is the fundamentals and where it counts is on the target. My thoughts at this stage are that the better shooters very likely have wider zones and beginning shooters have no idea what any of us are really talking about and for folks like me in the middle it all seems like trying to capture a ghost. I can imagine it but never quite seem to lay hands on something fully tangible. ;) Ultimately, over thinking all this stuff is a stage I think everyone has to go through (and I'm in that stage) until you can get full circle and come to the understanding that it really is just as simple as first described the first time you ever took a shot and everything else is just getting there. Align the sights, on the target, pull the trigger and follow through without disturbing them.

I don't have an electronic trainer so I can't try Isabell's methods -- I'd like to get one so the pennies are going into the cookie jar so to speak, to set aside the cash for that.

I will try Gordon's methods (always with what Steve says in mind).

So a question for Trinity -- what actually happens if you just get into position, level the sights, align them on target and take the shots? I'd be interested to know if whittling the grips changes that.