I helped put on our local Friends of the NRA banquet last night (first estimates have us raising about $35,000) and won a Colt Government 1911. I'm a career smallbore rifle shooter (distinguished in both 3P and prone) and I'm currently building an AR to work on my distinguished badge in that. Now I have what I've been told is a good gun to start bullseye with, so why not try for bullseye distinguished while I'm at it.
My question is what can I do that is somewhat cheap and quick to get it ready of a match. I like the trigger as is, at least for right now, so we can skip over that. It'll need an adjustable rear sight I figure. Maybe a new barrel, I'll have to go test it.
How much would these things run me?
Starting out with a 1911
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Soupy:
Congratulations! As to your question, I'm sure yoiu will get a lot of advice on how to "tweak up" your pistol.
However
Allow me to play the other side of the issue a bit; anmd volunteer to be the bearer of some really, really, bad news:
1. Be careful to keep your pistol legal for "CMP" or "Leg" ("service pistol") matches. It might not be legal as it is. In order to shoot it in distinguished matches, it must be a legal "Service Pistol."
2. Once it is "legal" for service pistol, it might not be even capable of shooting a point-garnering score even from a Ransom Rest. No- I'm not kidding.* Before you spend a cent on new pieces/parts, the gun must be fundamentally tightened up by a competent gunsmith WHO KNOWS HOW TO BUILD MATCH GRADE M1911s! The guy at Bass Pro Shops won't know how to do this . . .
It is indeed quite possible to replace every single part in the gun at great expense and still not have it able to hold 3" groups at 50 yards.
Expect to pay somewhere between $750-$1250 (and 6+ months waiting time) to make your gun entry-level capable for shooting Service Pistol matches.
Steve Swartz
*while almost any decent AR15 is gtg for service rifle matches [as long as it meets the service rifle rules], the same is nowhere even close to true for a stock M1911
Congratulations! As to your question, I'm sure yoiu will get a lot of advice on how to "tweak up" your pistol.
However
Allow me to play the other side of the issue a bit; anmd volunteer to be the bearer of some really, really, bad news:
1. Be careful to keep your pistol legal for "CMP" or "Leg" ("service pistol") matches. It might not be legal as it is. In order to shoot it in distinguished matches, it must be a legal "Service Pistol."
2. Once it is "legal" for service pistol, it might not be even capable of shooting a point-garnering score even from a Ransom Rest. No- I'm not kidding.* Before you spend a cent on new pieces/parts, the gun must be fundamentally tightened up by a competent gunsmith WHO KNOWS HOW TO BUILD MATCH GRADE M1911s! The guy at Bass Pro Shops won't know how to do this . . .
It is indeed quite possible to replace every single part in the gun at great expense and still not have it able to hold 3" groups at 50 yards.
Expect to pay somewhere between $750-$1250 (and 6+ months waiting time) to make your gun entry-level capable for shooting Service Pistol matches.
Steve Swartz
*while almost any decent AR15 is gtg for service rifle matches [as long as it meets the service rifle rules], the same is nowhere even close to true for a stock M1911
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Almost forgot . . . the adjustable rear sight actually would be one of the last things to do . . . getting the pistol accurized is a "necessary condition" to compete in matches. Having an adjustable rear sight is not even a "sufficient condition" to compete if the gun isn't accurized first.
If the gun will shoot 50 yard 4" ten shot groups off sandbags right now "as is" then disregard most of what I said in the previous post. Just by random luck some M1911s will shoot fairly well stock/out of the box.
I just wouldn't expect it to shoot better than 4" at *25* yards frankly. IIRC isn't 3" five shot groups benchrested at 25 yards considered the "good enough" level for stock M1911s? Not sure- I just heard that somewhere. But 3" 5 shot groups from a rest at 25 yards will be nowhere near good enough to compete in a service pistol match.
If the gun will shoot 50 yard 4" ten shot groups off sandbags right now "as is" then disregard most of what I said in the previous post. Just by random luck some M1911s will shoot fairly well stock/out of the box.
I just wouldn't expect it to shoot better than 4" at *25* yards frankly. IIRC isn't 3" five shot groups benchrested at 25 yards considered the "good enough" level for stock M1911s? Not sure- I just heard that somewhere. But 3" 5 shot groups from a rest at 25 yards will be nowhere near good enough to compete in a service pistol match.
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
The problem with a 1911 as a Service Pistol gun is that it takes a lot of time and practice to learn how to shoot it well, even when it has been accurized. If you are not an experienced pistol shooter already you will find it an incredible challenge. I have a friend who is a high master, distinguised service rifle, high power rifle guy who has been in search of distingushed pistol and practicing diligently for five years, He has four leg points. Also most of the top shooters have now moved on to using an accurized Beretta 92FS for the service pistol matches. As Steve says, neither a rack grade out of the box Beretta nor the 1911 will hold the ten ring at 50 yards. Most guns will not even hold the 8 ring. At most matches it will take a 250 or 260, sometimes a 270 plus to reliably get some LEG points. If you are down 30 points after the slow fire, because your gun won't hold the target, that is a pretty tough row to hoe. He was spot on for the pricing to accurize a 1911. If you want an accurized Beretta to shoot plan on sending it to David Sams or Mountain Competition Pistols, along with 1600 bucks and then wait a year. :-) Isabel
Thank you all for your input. I'll take the gun out to the range sometime and see what it can do off a rest with some type of ammo. I could use some suggestions of stuff I might find at a local gun store that shoots ok. I use winchester white box when I go shoot my .40 in an IPSC match, but that's a completely different bear.
I'm not too worried about how long Distinguished will take. I completed both smallbore distinguished badges before I was 21. I'm 24 now, so I have some time to practice. This is very much a what the heck kind of thing right now. There is an indoor bullseye league near me which meets once a month and shoots one 900 agg with one gun. And my gun club has monthly 2700 aggs for when I build up to that.
I'm not too worried about how long Distinguished will take. I completed both smallbore distinguished badges before I was 21. I'm 24 now, so I have some time to practice. This is very much a what the heck kind of thing right now. There is an indoor bullseye league near me which meets once a month and shoots one 900 agg with one gun. And my gun club has monthly 2700 aggs for when I build up to that.
This website has lots of info for the new BE shooter.
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
Good luck in your Distinguished goal!
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
Good luck in your Distinguished goal!
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john bickar
- Posts: 618
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 3:58 am
- Location: Corner of Walk & Don't Walk
Shoot it. Start now. Especially in leg matches.
Veteran shooters in any discipline (myself included) have a hard time remembering what it's actually like to start out as a newbie in a shooting discipline. There are a lot of processes and procedures in a match to get used to before you even get to the point where you can focus primarily on marksmanship.
Plus, the more non-Distinguished shooters in a leg match, the more legs get handed out. It's good for your shooting karma just to be another warm body on the line. (Make sure your gun's legal, and be sure to shoot at least one shot in each of two stages.)
Get the tools and learn the rules, that way once your skills get good enough to earn leg points you'll have the experience to take advantage of them.
Dave Salyer is a premier bullseye gunsmith and is in your area - Charlotte, I believe. He posts on the Bullseye-L list, which is linked from bullseyepistol.com.
(Of course, the folks here are right: you will ultimately need to get a gun that's suitable for shooting service pistol, whether that means building up your 1911 or getting an M9. However, that's no reason not to have fun in the meantime!)
-John Bickar
Distinguished Pistol Shot #1017
Distinguished International Shooter #446
Veteran shooters in any discipline (myself included) have a hard time remembering what it's actually like to start out as a newbie in a shooting discipline. There are a lot of processes and procedures in a match to get used to before you even get to the point where you can focus primarily on marksmanship.
Plus, the more non-Distinguished shooters in a leg match, the more legs get handed out. It's good for your shooting karma just to be another warm body on the line. (Make sure your gun's legal, and be sure to shoot at least one shot in each of two stages.)
Get the tools and learn the rules, that way once your skills get good enough to earn leg points you'll have the experience to take advantage of them.
Dave Salyer is a premier bullseye gunsmith and is in your area - Charlotte, I believe. He posts on the Bullseye-L list, which is linked from bullseyepistol.com.
(Of course, the folks here are right: you will ultimately need to get a gun that's suitable for shooting service pistol, whether that means building up your 1911 or getting an M9. However, that's no reason not to have fun in the meantime!)
-John Bickar
Distinguished Pistol Shot #1017
Distinguished International Shooter #446
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
HI
It would less expensive to start out on .22LR. You could get either a Marvel Unit 1 conversion, a S&W 41, or a Ruger Mk II or III. All of the fundamentals apply. Definitely try the new .45 ACP out, but also start with the lower recoiling pistol.
Check this out also:
http://www.brianzins.com/downloads.shtml
The downloaded file gives you the directions and the targets to help you become a good pistol shooter in a short time.
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
It would less expensive to start out on .22LR. You could get either a Marvel Unit 1 conversion, a S&W 41, or a Ruger Mk II or III. All of the fundamentals apply. Definitely try the new .45 ACP out, but also start with the lower recoiling pistol.
Check this out also:
http://www.brianzins.com/downloads.shtml
The downloaded file gives you the directions and the targets to help you become a good pistol shooter in a short time.
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
HIjohn bickar wrote:Shoot it. Start now. Especially in leg matches.
...There are a lot of processes and procedures in a match to get used to before you even get to the point where you can focus primarily on marksmanship.
Plus, the more non-Distinguished shooters in a leg match, the more legs get handed out. ...
Get the tools and learn the rules, that way once your skills get good enough to earn leg points you'll have the experience to take advantage of them.
Seconding what John did, the sooner you shoot in a match, the sooner you get past the "buck fever". While you're an experienced and a good shooter, you don't understand a match until you shoot it. It's also good to shoot "leg matches" because if nothing else, the more of us there are to beat, the more points get sent out.
For example, I shot outdoor monthly matches for 2 years before I joined the Monday night pistol league. The first night, I didn't put a new "center" (just the bullseye part) on my timed fire target because you don't do that outside. Indoors we took the three slow fire targets, and the six sustained fire target centers off the range to score later. I only had five sustained fire centers immediately loosing 100 points.
Hope this all helps a little. Oh, and buy Hebbard's treasury of pistol shooting, it's usually less than $10 and it's well worth it.
Mike
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
As far as ammo is concerned, as long as it is 230 grain FMJ, which is required for a .45 leg match you should be fine. We discovered a dirty little secret down in Phoenix. The Winchester 9MM cheapo stuff that they sell at Wal Mart will hold the X ring in an accurized 9MM. I have heard that commerical .45 is very good also. As far as Dave Salyer, is concerend, great guy, great shooter, great gunsmith. He could help you a lot if you are in the area. I think he lives just south of the border in South Carolina, but shoots in Charlotte. Isabel.
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Dittos on the USMC training guide available on Brian's web site.
Work through those exercises diligently and you will be shooting Master class level scores very quickly!
Steve
Best Features of USMC Guide:
1. It works
2. It ain't complicated
3. It tackles fundamental issues square on without a bunch of subconscious zen gobbledegook
Shortfalls:
1. If you are the type of person who needs to know "why" things work the way they do, you won't be very happy and will probably not follow the guide the way you are supposed to.
Work through those exercises diligently and you will be shooting Master class level scores very quickly!
Steve
Best Features of USMC Guide:
1. It works
2. It ain't complicated
3. It tackles fundamental issues square on without a bunch of subconscious zen gobbledegook
Shortfalls:
1. If you are the type of person who needs to know "why" things work the way they do, you won't be very happy and will probably not follow the guide the way you are supposed to.
I have to express yet more gratitude. That guide is amazing, mostly because it supplies targets for you. Steve, I think the "Why things work" idea you say is missing is because the guide assumes you have a coach working with you. It's more of a step by step training guide in my view, and a darn good one.
I have also found out that my family owns 2 model 41s, one match grade, one standard. I still plan on taking the 1911 out to give it a test run on some sandbags, but I believe I will do a few league matches with the .22 before tackling the .45.
I'm not 100% used to the recoil of a pistol after shooting smallbore rifle my whole life, but I know I don't have the muzzle dip anticipation that I've seen in other people.
Thanks again everyone. Let me know if you want to start smallbore rifle and I'll return the favor.
I have also found out that my family owns 2 model 41s, one match grade, one standard. I still plan on taking the 1911 out to give it a test run on some sandbags, but I believe I will do a few league matches with the .22 before tackling the .45.
I'm not 100% used to the recoil of a pistol after shooting smallbore rifle my whole life, but I know I don't have the muzzle dip anticipation that I've seen in other people.
Thanks again everyone. Let me know if you want to start smallbore rifle and I'll return the favor.
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solomon grundy
Steve, Isabel, and the other commenters are correct that the accurizing necessary to make a match pistol is often extensive. But if I were to recommend an initial upgrade that should yield a significant improvement in accuracy, and isn't very expensive, it would be to have a match bushing installed.My question is what can I do that is somewhat cheap and quick to get it ready of a match.
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Steve Sartz as Guest
Soupy:
Great plan to stick with the .22 for a while.
Apt comment on the USMC training guide as well . . . although I beleive there mzay be another reason why the Marine Corps feels it unecessary to explain all the "theory" behind "why" each training element and technique development drill works . . .
(ducking for cover)
I don't want to attribute this to anyone by name, but a world class (olympic) pistol shooter and coach from "another branch of the service" used to have an old saying about how shooting well was very simple, just not easy . . . and had some sayng about training monkeys how to shoot . . . "no stinkin' thinkin'" I believe was the bottom line . . .
=8^)
Steve
(p.s. having to always know "why" certain drills and exercises work and when they should be used etc. is *not* an advantage; as long as you have a coach wo can do all your thinking for you. Not everyoen is in an organized shooting program with the availability of a qualified coach. Ah well.)
Great plan to stick with the .22 for a while.
Apt comment on the USMC training guide as well . . . although I beleive there mzay be another reason why the Marine Corps feels it unecessary to explain all the "theory" behind "why" each training element and technique development drill works . . .
(ducking for cover)
I don't want to attribute this to anyone by name, but a world class (olympic) pistol shooter and coach from "another branch of the service" used to have an old saying about how shooting well was very simple, just not easy . . . and had some sayng about training monkeys how to shoot . . . "no stinkin' thinkin'" I believe was the bottom line . . .
=8^)
Steve
(p.s. having to always know "why" certain drills and exercises work and when they should be used etc. is *not* an advantage; as long as you have a coach wo can do all your thinking for you. Not everyoen is in an organized shooting program with the availability of a qualified coach. Ah well.)
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
"Steve, Isabel, and the other commenters are correct that the accurizing necessary to make a match pistol is often extensive. But if I were to recommend an initial upgrade that should yield a significant improvement in accuracy, and isn't very expensive, it would be to have a match bushing installed"
I respectfully disagree. It is all the components of a match pistol and how they fit together that make a gun shoot well. The guy I travel to matches with, now a high master indoors and a regular master outdoors shoots a .45 and he removes the bushing on his competition .45 with his fingers. It is that loose. The barrel, the trigger and the fit of the barrel to the slide are all good and that is why the gun shoots. You do lose a tiny amount of accuracy with a looser bushing but if the barrel and the fit of the components in the gun are not good you will gain very little by replacing the bushing. ONTH poor ammo will kill you at the 50 yard line, even if you gun is the best one out there. Isabel.
I respectfully disagree. It is all the components of a match pistol and how they fit together that make a gun shoot well. The guy I travel to matches with, now a high master indoors and a regular master outdoors shoots a .45 and he removes the bushing on his competition .45 with his fingers. It is that loose. The barrel, the trigger and the fit of the barrel to the slide are all good and that is why the gun shoots. You do lose a tiny amount of accuracy with a looser bushing but if the barrel and the fit of the components in the gun are not good you will gain very little by replacing the bushing. ONTH poor ammo will kill you at the 50 yard line, even if you gun is the best one out there. Isabel.
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solomon grundy
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Reminds me of a briefing slide an army Major used once several years back when talking about the acquisition program for the Bradley Burning err Sinking err Fighting vehicle.
The picture was of a scantily clad woman leaning up against a light pole in the inner city. The catpion read "You can have it Fast, You can have it Cheap, or You can have it Good . . . but you only get 2 out of 3!"
Point was the government procurement agency was trying to get all three . . . and ended up with a slow, expensive acquisition process of a very flawed piece of equipment.
Sorry- I guess I have should have declared an "Analogy Alert" first!
Steve
The picture was of a scantily clad woman leaning up against a light pole in the inner city. The catpion read "You can have it Fast, You can have it Cheap, or You can have it Good . . . but you only get 2 out of 3!"
Point was the government procurement agency was trying to get all three . . . and ended up with a slow, expensive acquisition process of a very flawed piece of equipment.
Sorry- I guess I have should have declared an "Analogy Alert" first!
Steve
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solomon grundy
That's the Good - Fast - Cheap pyramid!
GOOD
FAST CHEAP
choose two and sacrifice the third.
The tricky thing, for people who are new to BE, is that you can spend a lot of money on a 1911 and still not get one that's match ready. I'm thinking of some of the high-end 'custom' production pistols. From what I've seen, it's not uncommon for someone to get excited about BE and for them to buy an expensive 1911 that's marketed at a 'match' or 'target' gun expecting that it's suitable for competition. Only later do they realize that it's not capable of the accuracy that's necessary to do well. And then they're faced with the choice of whether to put even more money into the pistol, to bring it up to standard.
GOOD
FAST CHEAP
choose two and sacrifice the third.
The tricky thing, for people who are new to BE, is that you can spend a lot of money on a 1911 and still not get one that's match ready. I'm thinking of some of the high-end 'custom' production pistols. From what I've seen, it's not uncommon for someone to get excited about BE and for them to buy an expensive 1911 that's marketed at a 'match' or 'target' gun expecting that it's suitable for competition. Only later do they realize that it's not capable of the accuracy that's necessary to do well. And then they're faced with the choice of whether to put even more money into the pistol, to bring it up to standard.
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Steve Swartz as Guest