TargetTalk

this is one of the projects we have been working on the past few months finally reaching a production stage.

http://www.pilkguns.com/menu_ar15.shtml

For those outside the US, the rifle competition in America with the most competitors by far is called High Power, using the military service rifle like the M16. The Civilian Marksmanship Program, led by Gary Anderson (also the ISSF Vice President) is prmoting a new 10 meter air rifle event allowng the use of this and using the 200 yard High Power target reduced down to 10 meters. The 200 yard 10 ring at 10 meters is abuot a 8.8 on a ISSF 10 meter rarget



Oh and for what it's woth, the BF-17 stands for Bob Foth, the Silver medalist in Barcelona, now the program director for youth with USA Shooting. It was a conversation with Bob about the new CMP match that this concept evolved from.

This is great news.

When do you anticipate that the first models will be shipping?

If I get one can I call my rifle an AIR15?

Any chance you can bring the price down a bit?

$750 for an air rifle upper?

I can get a dedicated .22LR upper for $550. They take 30 round magazines and you can actually practice just like you would for a match. Spend another $750 and you could get a Scat or Rika which would give you a lot of other feedback and even better training.

It looks like it would be fun, but at that price and the price of the electronic trainers I'd rather pick up one of the electronic training systems instead.

One other thought, If you made it on a flat top AR with a removable A2 match rear sight instead of the carry handle it would be much easier to load. I can't imagine my fat fingers reaching under an AR carrying handle to stuff a little pellet in place.

Any chance you can bring the price down a bit?
actually the price is probably going up on the next 25. if you look at the off the shelf components I am buying, the upper, the barrel, the NM sight, the air valving and fill station, you can see I have over $400 in costs before I start modifying them or making parts from scratch. NOt to mention that in the last few weeks the price and availabilty of AR parts have gone way up and gotten scarce.

$750 for an air rifle upper?
Compared the cost of ammo, and drive time to train with a .223 or even a .22 lr, its very cheap.

I can get a dedicated .22LR upper for $550. They take 30 round magazines and you can actually practice just like you would for a match. Spend another $750 and you could get a Scat or Rika which would give you a lot of other feedback and even better training.

But you can't train at home with your .22lr upper and you can't compete in the CMP National Match Air Rifle competitions. While I certainly agree with the usefulness of the Scatt or RIKA, I would say the price is off by almost double.

If you made it on a flat top AR with a removable A2 match rear sight instead of the carry handle it would be much easier to load. I can't imagine my fat fingers reaching under an AR carrying handle to stuff a little pellet in place.[/quote]

You don't have to stuff the pellet in place, we are using the trough type system so all you have to do is drop it facing the right direction. Not to mention the cost of the those NM rear sights for flatttops are nearly double what the standard NM sights are.

The cheap 22 uppers aren't suitable as trainers. Those that are (e.g. Compass Lake) start at ~$850 and go up to $1400+.

Nice project, but the one problem is the assault rifle appearence. These weapon looking air rifles are forbbiden here.

Actually, replicas of weapons are forbbiden in Brazil. Too many crimes with them. I almost shot a young army conscript stupid enough to come up on me waving what looked like a .45.

jacques b gros wrote:Nice project, but the one problem is the assault rifle appearence. These weapon looking air rifles are forbbiden here.

Actually, replicas of weapons are forbbiden in Brazil. Too many crimes with them. I almost shot a young army conscript stupid enough to come up on me waving what looked like a .45.

They are meant for a specific competition in the US that being service rifle, this is only the upper and you would need the lower receiver which I doubt that you could get in Brazil, that is why it looks like an "assault rifle" because it actually has to mate with the other half of the actual "assault rifle".

As for being used in crimes, I'm not sure why an individual would pay around $2000 for a pellet gun when he could go out and buy cheap versions of the real thing cheaper.

Scott,

Sounds great and looks great. So where do we get the rule book and targets?

I was waiting on the phone for the airline call center, saw the pictures, didn't read the text. Sorry for the objections, they're meant for the fakes.

Is a great idea and, seemingly, very well executed.

Congratulations.

pilkguns wrote:Any chance you can bring the price down a bit?
actually the price is probably going up on the next 25. if you look at the off the shelf components I am buying, the upper, the barrel, the NM sight, the air valving and fill station, you can see I have over $400 in costs before I start modifying them or making parts from scratch. NOt to mention that in the last few weeks the price and availabilty of AR parts have gone way up and gotten scarce.

$750 for an air rifle upper?
Compared the cost of ammo, and drive time to train with a .223 or even a .22 lr, its very cheap.

I can get a dedicated .22LR upper for $550. They take 30 round magazines and you can actually practice just like you would for a match. Spend another $750 and you could get a Scat or Rika which would give you a lot of other feedback and even better training.

But you can't train at home with your .22lr upper and you can't compete in the CMP National Match Air Rifle competitions. While I certainly agree with the usefulness of the Scatt or RIKA, I would say the price is off by almost double.

If you made it on a flat top AR with a removable A2 match rear sight instead of the carry handle it would be much easier to load. I can't imagine my fat fingers reaching under an AR carrying handle to stuff a little pellet in place.

You don't have to stuff the pellet in place, we are using the trough type system so all you have to do is drop it facing the right direction. Not to mention the cost of the those NM rear sights for flatttops are nearly double what the standard NM sights are. [/quote]

Probably an economy of scale thing, you can't get good pricing on small lots. When I look at a $750 air rifle upper shown in the photos and a $1,500 Anschutz 8002, I sure think the 8002 is much more than twice the value of the upper.

Sure it saves over firing .223, but you can stay home and dry fire and save even more.

I guess in the end your customers and the market will decide if it's worth it or not. I think it's a cool idea, I just don't see $750 worth of value in it for me. I can't really shoot air rifle in my house anyways so I'd still have to drive to the range to use it.

As for getting the pellets in, I have trouble getting pellets in the Daisy 888's the kids shoot. The loading port area doesn't look much bigger than the 888's is. I can't imagine trying to get my fingers under the carrying handle to load it.

Well it seem obvious you aren't buying one so I guess you don't have to worry about getting your fingers in there to load a pellet.

You really take liberties with rounding off prices too, an 8002 is about $1900 that is without sights, just like that $750 for a scatt or rika.

I compete in HP with an AR-15 A2 service rifle. An air rifle trainer is an attractive option. This is actually something that's been discussed in the HP community for a while now - which is probably why the responses on nationalmatch.us are so favorable.

Scott:
Can this design accommodate the tension of a sling? - or is it only intended for offhand shooting?

Richard H wrote:Well it seem obvious you aren't buying one so I guess you don't have to worry about getting your fingers in there to load a pellet.

You really take liberties with rounding off prices too, an 8002 is about $1900 that is without sights, just like that $750 for a scatt or rika.

First, I would probably buy one if they were cheaper. I'm not a high power shooter (yet), but I do own 4 AR15's. A cheap practice alternative is attractive to me.

Second nothing wrong with my prices. Anschutz 8002 club with 6834 sight set is $1,550 from Champions Choice. That also was the price at CMP the last time I checked.

As for my pricing on the Scatt or Rika you misread what I typed. I said:

$750 for an air rifle upper?.....

.....Spend another $750

Meaning if you are spending $750 for the upper, if you spent another $750 or $1,500 total you could get a Scat or Rika trainer. If you are half way to a better tool why not buy the better tool? You can use a Scatt or Rika on a lot more than just an AR15 lower. They will also tell you a lot more about your shot than an air rifle will.

I think Scott has a good idea, I just think the price is too high. It doesn't allow you to practice rapid fire strings. It doesn't simulate recoil. It is a very limited tool for high power practice. It really is just dry fire practice with some feed back on how good your hold was.

I wouldn't be surprised to see one of the major air rifle manufactures take Scott's idea and make it in a much cheaper version. If Daisy can sell an 888 for $300 they ought to be able to make an AR15 upper for the same amount or less.

Putting a flat top upper on it would give another advantage besides making loading easier. Scot could make it CHEAPER. Very simple just follow Anschutz and don't include sights on it. Let the purchaser decide what type of sights they want on it. They may decide that a $30 chinese knock off rear sight will work just fine for their needs. Or they may want a National Match rear sight. But if like most AR15 junkies they probably have a pile of parts sitting around the basement and could put their own rear sight on it. Even if they don't from what I've seen a NM removable rear sight is about $25 more expensive than a regular removable rear sight. Flat top uppers and A2 uppers usually sell for the same price. Deleting the National Match rear sight should allow you to lower the price by at least $100.

I think it also would be easier to machine a flat top upper, just lock the upper into a block and make a couple of passes with the mill from the top.

I'm a HP shooter, so my comments are as follows:

I don't think the price is out of line at all. My .22rf upper cost a lot more, and the way the good rf ammo went up the last year, I think you will sell a ton of these.

I heard about the new "cross over XTC" air rifle competition, but I wondering about the COF. Half the competition is rapid fire, so how are they going to handle the rapid sitting and rapid prone with a single shot rifle? Obviously with no recoil another pellet can't be loaded, or is there a way of using a mag so the charging handle could be use like a staight pull?

TWP I think that you're going to have to accept that this rifle isn't be marketed to you. If you want a cheap repeater w/ simulated recoil, you should take a look at some of the AR-15 airsoft replicas.

Ken O wrote:
I heard about the new "cross over XTC" air rifle competition, but I wondering about the COF. Half the competition is rapid fire, so how are they going to handle the rapid sitting and rapid prone with a single shot rifle? Obviously with no recoil another pellet can't be loaded, or is there a way of using a mag so the charging handle could be use like a staight pull?

I know CMP is working on the rules. COF and match schedule for next year for the NMar (National Match air rifle) program. I thinking you will see this online by mid December.