Hi all,
Am curious as to how many free pistol shooters use compensators and if they find it a useful/beneficial add-on. I use an old Hammerli 107 and it does help in terms of lessening the muzzle jump, the barrel being much higher against the web of the hand especially when compared with the 150's and the like.
Regards,
Ron
free pistol compensator
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Ron - compensators are something of a religious topic around here. Bottom line is that some folks may feel them to be of benefit. My personal experience from group testing is that it would be difficult to find a comp that would produce a measureable improvement in accuracy.
With this being the case, I personally feel the effect of the comp is more on your confidence as a shooter than on the "technical accuracy" of the pistol. It may help in your shot recovery, and therefore in your ability to "call the shot". If you can "call the shot" well then you're on the road to improving your confidence, which will allow you to feel more relaxed, making it easier to break the next shot more consistantly.
Others hang a comp on their pistol to change the balance. I've taken my comps off because I need a pistol that's lighter in the nose.
With this being the case, I personally feel the effect of the comp is more on your confidence as a shooter than on the "technical accuracy" of the pistol. It may help in your shot recovery, and therefore in your ability to "call the shot". If you can "call the shot" well then you're on the road to improving your confidence, which will allow you to feel more relaxed, making it easier to break the next shot more consistantly.
Others hang a comp on their pistol to change the balance. I've taken my comps off because I need a pistol that's lighter in the nose.
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Rick Eickhoff
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 7:16 pm
- Location: Pennsylvania
Skanaker "blow-out" Compensator - Findings
I wanted to find out how much a compenstator impoves the overall grouping of the ammunition.
Using following:
Ransom Rest - with custom Morini barrel insert
2 - Morini 84e with the Skanaker "blow-out" Comp and stock Morini barrel weight- non comp.
Tested the following ammunitions:
Eley tenex
Eley Pisto Match
SK Jag Pistol Match
SK Jag Pistol Match Special
Federal 714B
All the ammunition grouped well and the results were confirmed when switching to the 2nd Morini 84.
What was interesting was the group improvements with the Federal 714B.
Without the compensator the 714B had a marginal 10 shot group average 1.25" center to center. Kind-of what I had expected for training ammo.
But, with the "blow-out" compensator the group 714B groups impoved to .6" center to center. Which was equal to the Eley Tenex Groups.
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I like the way the compensator feels during the shot delivery. It helps making "calling the shot" easier. It has a more predictable feeling during recoil.
If interested you can buy the Blow-Out Compensator from Ronny Nillson at Interprodkt - Sweden. He makes manufactures them for both the Morini 162 and the 84e. His price was relative to the other compensators on the market.
Using following:
Ransom Rest - with custom Morini barrel insert
2 - Morini 84e with the Skanaker "blow-out" Comp and stock Morini barrel weight- non comp.
Tested the following ammunitions:
Eley tenex
Eley Pisto Match
SK Jag Pistol Match
SK Jag Pistol Match Special
Federal 714B
All the ammunition grouped well and the results were confirmed when switching to the 2nd Morini 84.
What was interesting was the group improvements with the Federal 714B.
Without the compensator the 714B had a marginal 10 shot group average 1.25" center to center. Kind-of what I had expected for training ammo.
But, with the "blow-out" compensator the group 714B groups impoved to .6" center to center. Which was equal to the Eley Tenex Groups.
--------
I like the way the compensator feels during the shot delivery. It helps making "calling the shot" easier. It has a more predictable feeling during recoil.
If interested you can buy the Blow-Out Compensator from Ronny Nillson at Interprodkt - Sweden. He makes manufactures them for both the Morini 162 and the 84e. His price was relative to the other compensators on the market.
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Rick Eickhoff
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 7:16 pm
- Location: Pennsylvania
Skanaker "blow-out" Compensator
Ronny Nilson: info@interprodukter.se
Note: This is the same compensator Skanaker used to win the 2008 Swedish Nationals - 580 in AP.
Note: This is the same compensator Skanaker used to win the 2008 Swedish Nationals - 580 in AP.
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ronpistolero
compensator for free pistol
Hi all,
Thanks for your replies.
Mark, I mean nothing beyond asking in good faith what "religious" is when it comes to compensators for free pistol. I just want the opinions of those who have used them if they were helped by the gadget. I cannot afford to put more weight on the muzzle as I find the gun quite heavy in itself, so I had one machined made of of some form of engineering plastic and it weighs 13 grams. For my old gun (Hammerli 107) whose barrel is way above the web of my hand when compared to the newer models, the upward recoil is quite too much. Hence, I experimented using slower velocity ammos which not only produced lesser upward movement, but also was very soft on the rearward recoil (shoulder). In any case, the comp, has somewhat made it easier for me, albeit the under 250 rounds I shot it with so far.
Rick, thanks for the details of your experiment. I have no gun rest to speak of but I personally wouldn't mind if the comp I have did not improve the accuracy. It would be enough that the recoil is lessened. In other words, the constant (accuracy) has remained constant, but the variable--me--had been given a gadget that makes it easier to do the follow through, which hopefully turns in some additional points in the final score
Best regards,
Ron
Thanks for your replies.
Mark, I mean nothing beyond asking in good faith what "religious" is when it comes to compensators for free pistol. I just want the opinions of those who have used them if they were helped by the gadget. I cannot afford to put more weight on the muzzle as I find the gun quite heavy in itself, so I had one machined made of of some form of engineering plastic and it weighs 13 grams. For my old gun (Hammerli 107) whose barrel is way above the web of my hand when compared to the newer models, the upward recoil is quite too much. Hence, I experimented using slower velocity ammos which not only produced lesser upward movement, but also was very soft on the rearward recoil (shoulder). In any case, the comp, has somewhat made it easier for me, albeit the under 250 rounds I shot it with so far.
Rick, thanks for the details of your experiment. I have no gun rest to speak of but I personally wouldn't mind if the comp I have did not improve the accuracy. It would be enough that the recoil is lessened. In other words, the constant (accuracy) has remained constant, but the variable--me--had been given a gadget that makes it easier to do the follow through, which hopefully turns in some additional points in the final score
Best regards,
Ron
Same experience: compensator get clogged with a lead mixture very hard to remove. I wonder how to clean complex designed compensators with small holes (the irosa for instance).Gwhite wrote:I used the Morini compensator on my CM84E as it came from the factory. It got very dirty inside, and was a pain in the neck to keep clean.
I have no doubt about their efficiency... when they are new/clean but how do they perform after a while ?
By the way, another one similar to the Irosa:
Do you know who manufacture and/or sell this one and for what pistol it is available ?
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Ron - absolutely no offense taken, as I likewise hope no offense was caused. My comment about compensators being something of a religious topic really had nothing to do with religion and more to do with the way folks hold strong beliefs and opinions on the topic - something like the way some folks hold religious beliefs and opinions.
I guess what it really comes down to is, like religion, there's probably no hard-and-fast right or wrong answers. What works for you as an individual is likely what's best, despite how strongly others may express opinions to the contrary.
From a personal standpoint, I enjoy the way the stock and "long" Morini compensators modify the recoil impulse. Their added weight waaaaay out there on the muzzle just doesn't work for me, and produces a much stronger negative contribution to my shooting performance than the countervailing positive influence of improved recoil "feel".
Like you, I sought an alternative solution. This solution drew quite a few stares and more than a few laughs at a world cup. My solution was to have the same mechanical properties as the stock Morini comp, but without the weight. I achieved this by using a composite design fabricated from oak, wound with reinforcing fibres and epoxy. Worked like a charm but looked a little, well, different... ;-)
My technical accuracy testing was done in much the same way as that posted by Rick, above. My results seem to have been much like Ricks in that I noticed very little, if any, change in grouping performance when using good ammo. As a comparison (I'm looking at the targets here on my desk), the group sizes shot with my particular favourite lot of Eley Tenex are variable to a certain degree. They run from about 18 to 30mm, but generally around 20-24mm as an average. I cannot look at any given target and determine whether or not the comp was in use when the target was shot. These targets all exhibit about the same variability and extreme spread, with or without the compensator installed.
That's why, in my mind, the use of a compensator comes down to personal choice as opposed to it being a "must have" on the basis of its ability to improve the technical accuracy of the pistol.
As far as cleaning is concerned, I found a few little tricks that help. One is to thoroughly coat the inside of the compensator with a film of lubricant (I used Breakfree CLP) before shooting. This film of lubricant seems to reduce the adhesion of the spattered lead and other gunk. Soaking the comp in a solvent (I used Varsol) will also soften the deposits, making them a little more amenable to being scraped off. I also cut a chunk of wooden dowling to the proper profile and shaped it like a chamfering bit to use as a scraper to remove the gunk that accumulates in the end of the compensator.
One thing is certain, if you use a comp and don't clean it, and particularly if you don't clean the resulting gunk off the crown of the pistol's barrel, you WILL eventually erode the technical accuracy of your pistol. If you're going to use a comp you'd better get used to the idea of having to clean it regularly.
I guess what it really comes down to is, like religion, there's probably no hard-and-fast right or wrong answers. What works for you as an individual is likely what's best, despite how strongly others may express opinions to the contrary.
From a personal standpoint, I enjoy the way the stock and "long" Morini compensators modify the recoil impulse. Their added weight waaaaay out there on the muzzle just doesn't work for me, and produces a much stronger negative contribution to my shooting performance than the countervailing positive influence of improved recoil "feel".
Like you, I sought an alternative solution. This solution drew quite a few stares and more than a few laughs at a world cup. My solution was to have the same mechanical properties as the stock Morini comp, but without the weight. I achieved this by using a composite design fabricated from oak, wound with reinforcing fibres and epoxy. Worked like a charm but looked a little, well, different... ;-)
My technical accuracy testing was done in much the same way as that posted by Rick, above. My results seem to have been much like Ricks in that I noticed very little, if any, change in grouping performance when using good ammo. As a comparison (I'm looking at the targets here on my desk), the group sizes shot with my particular favourite lot of Eley Tenex are variable to a certain degree. They run from about 18 to 30mm, but generally around 20-24mm as an average. I cannot look at any given target and determine whether or not the comp was in use when the target was shot. These targets all exhibit about the same variability and extreme spread, with or without the compensator installed.
That's why, in my mind, the use of a compensator comes down to personal choice as opposed to it being a "must have" on the basis of its ability to improve the technical accuracy of the pistol.
As far as cleaning is concerned, I found a few little tricks that help. One is to thoroughly coat the inside of the compensator with a film of lubricant (I used Breakfree CLP) before shooting. This film of lubricant seems to reduce the adhesion of the spattered lead and other gunk. Soaking the comp in a solvent (I used Varsol) will also soften the deposits, making them a little more amenable to being scraped off. I also cut a chunk of wooden dowling to the proper profile and shaped it like a chamfering bit to use as a scraper to remove the gunk that accumulates in the end of the compensator.
One thing is certain, if you use a comp and don't clean it, and particularly if you don't clean the resulting gunk off the crown of the pistol's barrel, you WILL eventually erode the technical accuracy of your pistol. If you're going to use a comp you'd better get used to the idea of having to clean it regularly.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
I had an opportunity to examine an Irosa comp at a match Sunday. It is very easy to disassemble for cleaning. It is very long.
The 'Top Ten' brand pictured appears to be identical to the new Morini long compensator.
Like Mark, I have found that comps are easier to clean if kept 'wet' with CLP or similar cleaner. I cleaned my Morini long comp after about a year's shooting and found most of my time was spent getting the lead buildup off the face of the muzzle.
The 'Top Ten' brand pictured appears to be identical to the new Morini long compensator.
Like Mark, I have found that comps are easier to clean if kept 'wet' with CLP or similar cleaner. I cleaned my Morini long comp after about a year's shooting and found most of my time was spent getting the lead buildup off the face of the muzzle.
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ronpistolero
comps for free pistol
Thanks all for your thoughts on the subject.
Great photos, Jipe. But gosh, these must have been designed for persons in really good shape. The weight and leverage the comp makes ought to really be very effective to sell.
Great thoughts too on keeping the comp clean. The bore I had made is no more that .8mm bigger that the bullet diameter and I understand the importance of keeping it clean. But the jets, or more so vents, I have are really big, something like 7mm x 12 mm, so most of the leading is really blown off of it. Though I wonder why the aluminum I made deposited more lead despite the similarity in vent size. I assume that the plastic I used was "slippery" enough to not keep the lead fixed within. I will post some pics of it later and hope to get some more inputs on improving its performance. I aim to reduce the jump by over 50%.
Best regards,
Ron
Great photos, Jipe. But gosh, these must have been designed for persons in really good shape. The weight and leverage the comp makes ought to really be very effective to sell.
Great thoughts too on keeping the comp clean. The bore I had made is no more that .8mm bigger that the bullet diameter and I understand the importance of keeping it clean. But the jets, or more so vents, I have are really big, something like 7mm x 12 mm, so most of the leading is really blown off of it. Though I wonder why the aluminum I made deposited more lead despite the similarity in vent size. I assume that the plastic I used was "slippery" enough to not keep the lead fixed within. I will post some pics of it later and hope to get some more inputs on improving its performance. I aim to reduce the jump by over 50%.
Best regards,
Ron
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Guest
HI,
As promised, here are some pics of the plastic comp I made for my Hammerli 107. I would truly appreciate any suggestions to improve its recoil damping function.
The following are photos of the one I had made of T6 aluminum for the Hammerli 150. This one weighs in at about 30 grams (?). It has made the jump near zero which is what I want to achieve with the plastic. As mentioned earlier, I cannot afford to put in more muzzle weight on my gun.
Best regards,
Ron
As promised, here are some pics of the plastic comp I made for my Hammerli 107. I would truly appreciate any suggestions to improve its recoil damping function.
The following are photos of the one I had made of T6 aluminum for the Hammerli 150. This one weighs in at about 30 grams (?). It has made the jump near zero which is what I want to achieve with the plastic. As mentioned earlier, I cannot afford to put in more muzzle weight on my gun.
Best regards,
Ron
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
Ron,
You did a great job on both of them! You could probably sell the plastic ones if you would make them available for other pistols. I really like the Olympic rings on the aluminum one.
One suggestion would be to darken the compensator so it doesn't contribute to the glare on the front sight under changing light conditions.
Excellent work, Ron!
Ben
You did a great job on both of them! You could probably sell the plastic ones if you would make them available for other pistols. I really like the Olympic rings on the aluminum one.
One suggestion would be to darken the compensator so it doesn't contribute to the glare on the front sight under changing light conditions.
Excellent work, Ron!
Ben
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ronpistolero
free pistol compensator
Hi Ben, Kennethl,
Thanks.
The aluminum was "bare" because the guy who bought it wanted to keep his options open with regards to its final color through anodizing. Though there has been not much testing yet, the new owners are happy with it. One fellow who would call his shot a 7 at the 3 o'clock position finds its a 9 in the same position. So, I guess he is relearning (the gun's movement has become minimal) and has significantly improved his practice groups as he claims. My apologies. No drawings available because I was simply "playing it by ear". They just saw my plastic comp and wanted one for themselves. The goal was to make a simple drop-in attachment with as light a material as possible and not hamper accuracy. So, we'd test it and bring it back to the shop and then enlarge the vents a bit to sort of tune it,ans so on. A tedious and expensive process, and unscientific as well. I found out too that the front sight housing/base is not exactly the same from one gun to the next in that one was ever so slight bigger so we had to re-machine the inside dia. of the comp ever so slightly to fit it in with a little "hand power".
The plastic was developed, more so adapted, because of the tapered and octagonal shaped barrel of the 107 I have. Using aluminum would be too difficult to machine (and heavy for me) and so I was very concerned of the plan to use plastic, slitting it to accomodate the front sight, and hope that the comp's bore would remain centered to the gun's bore to maintain accuracy. Lo and behold, after pushing it onto the barrel with a little force over the gun's weight, the thing centered automatically. Next project would be a triple chamber with the hope of providing a more forceful upward gas movement to achieve the 50% goal I mentioned earlier.
I would appreciate technical comments that may help me improve this design.
Thanks again and regards,
Ron
Thanks.
The aluminum was "bare" because the guy who bought it wanted to keep his options open with regards to its final color through anodizing. Though there has been not much testing yet, the new owners are happy with it. One fellow who would call his shot a 7 at the 3 o'clock position finds its a 9 in the same position. So, I guess he is relearning (the gun's movement has become minimal) and has significantly improved his practice groups as he claims. My apologies. No drawings available because I was simply "playing it by ear". They just saw my plastic comp and wanted one for themselves. The goal was to make a simple drop-in attachment with as light a material as possible and not hamper accuracy. So, we'd test it and bring it back to the shop and then enlarge the vents a bit to sort of tune it,ans so on. A tedious and expensive process, and unscientific as well. I found out too that the front sight housing/base is not exactly the same from one gun to the next in that one was ever so slight bigger so we had to re-machine the inside dia. of the comp ever so slightly to fit it in with a little "hand power".
The plastic was developed, more so adapted, because of the tapered and octagonal shaped barrel of the 107 I have. Using aluminum would be too difficult to machine (and heavy for me) and so I was very concerned of the plan to use plastic, slitting it to accomodate the front sight, and hope that the comp's bore would remain centered to the gun's bore to maintain accuracy. Lo and behold, after pushing it onto the barrel with a little force over the gun's weight, the thing centered automatically. Next project would be a triple chamber with the hope of providing a more forceful upward gas movement to achieve the 50% goal I mentioned earlier.
I would appreciate technical comments that may help me improve this design.
Thanks again and regards,
Ron
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Guest
Hi Kenneth,
Actually, the original design for both were that the vents were pointed 55 degrees, or about 2 ft. above the shooter's head to sort of "pull" the gun forward, thus lessening felt rearwards recoil. I actually could feel the jet of the blast when I stretch my palm atop my head, but it the result was somewhat negligible so I just opened it up so that there would be less resistance to the upward force. However, the fellow who wanted the aluminum piece wanted it plain upwards. And that's the one posted. Later, he sold it and had another one made with an 11 degree forward blowing vents. Another shooter tried the aluminum comp I did and stuck it on to his Hammerli 160 and liked it so much he wanted one made for him. I have a new design in mind and I wanna machine it as soon as your design is posted as there might be some ideas that I may incorporate with mine. I hope you wouldn't mind that
Regards,
Ron
Actually, the original design for both were that the vents were pointed 55 degrees, or about 2 ft. above the shooter's head to sort of "pull" the gun forward, thus lessening felt rearwards recoil. I actually could feel the jet of the blast when I stretch my palm atop my head, but it the result was somewhat negligible so I just opened it up so that there would be less resistance to the upward force. However, the fellow who wanted the aluminum piece wanted it plain upwards. And that's the one posted. Later, he sold it and had another one made with an 11 degree forward blowing vents. Another shooter tried the aluminum comp I did and stuck it on to his Hammerli 160 and liked it so much he wanted one made for him. I have a new design in mind and I wanna machine it as soon as your design is posted as there might be some ideas that I may incorporate with mine. I hope you wouldn't mind that
Regards,
Ron
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Muzzle Brake-Compensator
Ron(guest) I am looking for a muzzle brake that replaces/slips over the barrel of a TOZ 35M. If you fabricate/sell this device- can you PM me.If any members know of a moderate size muzzle brake or compensator-let me know. Thanks