Taking advice/coaching

[220]

I have heard people say they wont take advice or coaching from people who can't shoot better scores than them, or wont offer advice because the shooter already shoots higher scores than they achieve.
How many subscribe to this idea?

IMHO it limits your available knowledge pool. If your aim is to be the best in your club, state, country, world, where do you turn to for advice/ coaching when you get there.

Our club coach (pistol) struggles to shoot 510 regularly in any match yet can have a person who has never shot previously shooting above this level in 1/2 dozen sessions.

Do you think a coach must be able to personaly put their knowledge into practice or is knowing what is needed to produce a good shot and how to achieve it enough.

[2650 Plus]

Taking advice from a poor shot subjects you to incorrect information that , if you practice it long enough may doom you to the marksman class for the rest of your life. Try to find someone with enough skill to give correct advice. Try the Moody / Zins listed clinic in the BE section or almost any high master. You seem to be trying to justify to yourself a course of action you may come to regret. If you persist I can only wish you the best of luck in funding that one in a million person that can teach what you need to know with out personal experience.and shooting ability. If you are just a trol trying to pick a fight, For Shame, Sir as you seem to have rigged your poll to reflect only your own idea. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Taking advice from a poor shot subjects you to incorrect information that , if you practice it long enough may doom you to the marksman class for the rest of your life. Try to find someone with enough skill to give correct advice. Try the Moody / Zins listed clinic in the BE section or almost any high master. You seem to be trying to justify to yourself a course of action you may come to regret. If you persist I can only wish you the best of luck in funding that one in a million person that can teach what you need to know with out personal experience.and shooting ability. If you are just a trol trying to pick a fight, For Shame, Sir as you seem to have rigged your poll to reflect only your own idea. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

Please define "poor shot".

At what point does Mr "Poor Shot" become qualified to coach?

In Oregon BTW I know of no one who offers his/her services as a coach other than volunteers to the few junior club groups with varying degrees of success. Never the less, praise be to them for volunteering.

[higginsdj]

That's interesting. Is there a misconception that one only knows how to shoot well because they achieve better scores that you? What about experience? What about physical ability?

[mikeschroeder]

Hi

The NRA / USAS / CMP coach's class teaches you to help students shoot better. Someone who has taken a class can teach at least to an intermediate level without shooting much. I agree that having a Marksman trying to teach someone shooting at NRA expert level isn't optimal.

On the other hand, a coach is someone who watches you shoot and makes corrections based on what he sees. The shooter makes corrections based on the shots and on what he feels. Even a poor shooter can tell an expert what his stance (for example) looks like and THEY can determine what to do about it.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

[Guest]

If you are just a trol trying to pick a fight, For Shame, Sir as you seem to have rigged your poll to reflect only your own idea. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill not looking for a fight and yes I will probably be stuck at not much better than marksmen level but not due to coaching advice more a lack of dedication, not training and having shot for years with no understanding of the basics of producing a good shot. (years of bad habits)

All polls are structered to get the results wanted by the person conducting them. No I didn't do it deliberetly and if anyone can come up with better wording for the poll please do so.

I have read quotes attributed to an elite shooter saying they would never take advice from someone who can't shoot to their level. Wondered how widespread this point of view is.

If I'm after advice I try to get it from as high a level competitor as I can but I don't discount advice offered from fellow shooters simply because of the scores they shoot.

In most sports coaches haven't been elite level competitors. Many have competed at above club level but not the absolute highest levels of their choosen sport.

Our club coach doesn't profess to have the knowledge to take a shooter into the elite ranks. He classes himself as a beginers coach and aims to give new shooters a sound understanding of the basics.

I have noticed a lot of coaches don't compete in competition.
Why?
Is it because of this train of thought?
Would some shooters stop seeking their advice when they realised they could shoot better scores than the coach.

[220]

Forgot to log in before the previous post

[jackh]

Really it makes a difference what page of shooting we are on. There is a world of difference between coaches teaching fundamentals to a shooter in the 80% score area and coaches teaching the mental powers to an elite shooter. But still I do not believe that the elite teaching coach has to be the scoring machine that Bill implies. Another thing is that a lot of us do not have the contact with any elite system like military, national, or active club. We are not all AMU material. Bill seems to be often on the AMU or elite page.

[methosb]

Well put it this way; if Warren Potent or Matt Emmons' coach got down on the mat do you think their coach would out-shoot them?

There is no reason not to take advice from people who can't shoot as well as you. A smart shooter would take any advice in and investigate it themselves and decide whether it was good advice or not, or just whether it was helpful to them.

I think any shooter who can only shoot well if every bit of advice they get is "good" and works for them, isn't going to go very far.

[Steve Swartz]

This is really an interesting (and controversial, to some folks) issue.

First of all- it is abviously a non sequitur- otherwise, who on earth would be qualified to coach world class athletes? Do they all just coach each other? Of course not.

Now to the vast majority of folks: is it necessary that yoiur "coach" be able to shoot better than you can? Again, obviously not, in many cases. The 80 year old veteran might be legally blind and unable to lift a pistol, but still may have wisdom well beyond what a current active shooter (at any level) may have.

So now we are left with the vast majority of us; shooting with and receiving coaching from a wide variety of people around us.

Let me first say that "experience" is probably more valuable than "ability." Second, that teaching/coaching skill is probably more valuable than shooting skill.

Now we are left consider a 2x2 matrix:

- Shoot well, coach well
- Shoot well, coach lousy
- Shoot lousy, coach well
- Shoot lousy, coach lousy

In my experience I have found among those four types of "fellow travellers" in this sport I have found very few well/well shooters. Less than 10% actually. The majority of folks fall into the well/lousy and lousy/well categories. There are a few lousy/lousy folks out there, but they are easily identified and avoided.

So we are left with the following task: How do we separate the well/lousy from the lousy/well?

By *only* getting adice from "good" shooters your probably of getting good coaching is actually very low . . .

Assuming a breakdown of 10%, 40%, 40%, and 10%, by only seeking advice from the 50% you are running a 20% chanvce of getting good coaching, and an 80% chance of getting lousy coaching . . .

[David Levene]

Taking advice from a poor shot subjects you to incorrect information that , if you practice it long enough may doom you to the marksman class for the rest of your life.

Sorry Bill but you come out with something similar whenever there is a discussion of coaching ability.

IMHO it is as wrong as it always was.

Apart from when I first started shooting I never had a coach who could have out-shot me even when they were in their prime. They may not have been able to perform but they certainly knew how to shoot and, more importantly, how to pass that knowledge to others.

[2650 Plus]

All who read my opinions will remember that I do not denegrate the person or his / her ideas but only defend my own. I devide coaches at the level of "Has Beens "[me] and "never wases." I spent 15 years of my life learning to master the shills necessary to deliver a ten on the target. I recieved very little help in the process from amy one that could not shoot at least at the same level or higher. I am convinced that shooting is at least 90% mental and the shooter with the best knowledge of how to prepare and deliver the shot is the one I will have to try and beat. Bad information is IMHO destroyed the hopes of many aspiring shooters and allowed the practice of poor techniques to become life long habits that could never be broken. Find a good coach and train with good information and you have a chance of becoming one of the elite shooters we read about. Would you rather be coached by Matt Emmonds or your local squirrel hunter ? Go to the bullseye shooters section and read the results one new shooter reports after attending the Moody / Zins Clinic. Now back to the trol, I cannot get the questionair to accept any response except the one the poster wanted to defend. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[David Levene]

Bad information is IMHO destroyed the hopes of many aspiring shooters and allowed the practice of poor techniques to become life long habits that could never be broken. Find a good coach and train with good information and you have a chance of becoming one of the elite shooters we read about.

That is all obvious but you haven't explained why a poor shot shouldn't have good information. Knowledge, personal performance and coaching ability are not the same thing.

[jholtman]

The problem with only taking advise from elite shooters is that many times they can only tell you what works for them. They are so involved with there own performance that that is all they know. A coach is someone that studies the sport in great detail and uses the information to give an athlete options. You should be very careful of a coach that tells you "this is the only way to do it", as every one has different needs. I believe that a coach should be able to ask questions of the shooter and many time the shooter will find the direction he needs to go from his own answers. I am not saying that the coach does not need to be a shooter as that is also part of studying the sport. When a coach gives advice, the athlete has the option to accept it or reject it after a resonable evaluation period. A coach does not just give tips on "hold the rifle this way" or "move your foot over here" except at the beginning level. Intermediate to advanced level athletes need guidance that comes from communication between tha athlete and coach.

Coaches that don't compete are probably too involved with there athletes to spend the time needed for training. I don't think that they are trying to hide their abilities.

Bottom line: A coach should be a shooter, but not necessarily at the elite level. He should however be a very technical person who can evaluate people and situations so the athlete can improve to the level that they are willing to work toward

[BPBrinson]

Bill, if you would register, you could vote. I know a coach that could be our next NPC that is not a very good shooter, however is a very successful "paid" shooting coach and writes coaching articles for several periodicals. Some of the best coaching (mental) has been from people that have never touched a gun. Do you really think Bela Karolyi was ever a female gymnast?

Confucius: The Teacher and the Taught, create the teaching.

Brooks

[Alex L]

As a retired P.E. school teacher, and a very experienced shooter, I have been helping shooters at my club for many years. Some have reached a very high level, but they were still prepared to listen to my advice, even though they could score higher than me in competitions.

It is having the knowledge, and being able to pass it on, that is the main criteria.

I was always interested in reading about other sports' high achievers,and how they trained to get to that level. This gives an overall understanding of various coaching methods.

I have coached not just shooting, but also coached at Olympic level of fencing, and Modern Pentathlon.

I feel it is up to the person if they want to listen to advice, whoever it comes from. It is communication skills that are important, not whether someone can shoot better than his coach.

At school when I had something important to tell the kids, I made them put one finger in one ear - so the information could not get out the other ear!! The results were always very positive.

This is an interesting discussion, with a variety of ideas.
Alex L.

[Guest]

I'm a rifle coach who played in several other sports before getting into rifle.

It has struck me how often in rifle that I've encountered this mindset of taking advice only from people who can outshoot you.

That mindset does not exist in any other sport I've been involved with (in the US.)

How many high school football coaches or basketball coaches or baseball coaches could actually outplay their athletes?

How many college sport coaches would sustain major injuries if they attempted to compete with their athletes in their specific sport?

For US shooters, anybody think Bobby Bowden could start at QB for Florida State right now?

If not, then how can Bobby Bowden be a good football coach?

If this idea is true, then Michael Phelps cannot be coached in swimming by anyone currently on planet earth.

But again, I say this is an idea I've encountered many times in rifle shooting that just doesn't seem to exist in other sports, at least not the ones I played when I was younger.

[Steve Swartz]

Of those who voted "Yes" it would be interesting to learn more about their rationale for holding that particular point of view.*

The "No" side of things has been explained by a few posters.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning/logic behind the "Yes" side of the question.

I don't necessarily want to argue about it (probably futile) but it is puzzling for me personally.

*I mean for tyros sure, because "everybody shoots better than you do" but what about the 540-560 MAP/510-530 FP shooters?

[Hemmers]

Would you rather be coached by Matt Emmonds or your local squirrel hunter ?

Who coaches Matt Emmons? Warren Potent? Didn't think so.


The simple question is: How many National Squad coaches are Olympic medallists themselves?
Not many. You do not need to be able to do something in order to be able to advise on it or teach it - you just need to know how it should be done.

You need to be able to analyse what all the top shooters do, think about the mechanics of shooting, know everything there is to know about the subject and then apply that to your own student. Whether you can apply it to yourself is another matter altogether. As has been a noted, an elite shooter knows exactly what works for them. An elite coach knows exactly what works for everyone else - and can then figure out what is most likely to work for their student.

In addition, there are some very good shots I know who are really awful coaches.

It's the same as university professors - you can be a world leader in your field. A Nobel Prizewinner even, but that won't make you a good lecturer or teacher. Practical ability and teaching ability do not automatically correlate. You might happen to be a good teacher as well, but it's not a given.

Being a good shot probably helps - especially at international level where the mental aspect is most critical - their advice is likely to be better if they have been through the same pressures. However, it is not a requirement.

I would get coaching off someone who is known as a good coach - nevermind their personal level of shooting. I certainly wouldn't then drop that person in favour of someone else just because they are a better shot than the current coach.

The caveat to this is that obviously that person needs to be experienced in shooting. A coach who had never picked up a gun before, but had just read about it in books would probably not give much good advice (practically - the psych side is different). However, they do not need to be an outstanding shot. Just an experienced and competent shot.