Mountain Competition Pistols
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
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dhurt
Mountain Competition Pistols
Howdy, Does anyone have experience with these pistols? I am especially interested in the 9mm. Thanks in advance, Dwaine.
I don't have one of Dr. Nick's pistols, but I have talked to him a couple of times and looked at a couple of his guns. They are good.
He is gaining respect in Bullseye circles, but he is pretty new to the game. He's only been making pistols for a couple of years, as far as I know, so there are not a lot of his guns that have 100,000 rds through them. Also, he has been ramping up production over the last year or so. It seems he is doing well, giving accurate estimates and delivering on time without sacrificing quality, but again, it is still early.
From all that I can tell, he knows how to make a pistol accurate and is a good person to deal with. His rail system for the Beretta is nice and should be reliable. He also is a supporter of our sport, donating 2 pistols to be given away at the CMP awards. That is very cool if you ask me.
Steve Turner
He is gaining respect in Bullseye circles, but he is pretty new to the game. He's only been making pistols for a couple of years, as far as I know, so there are not a lot of his guns that have 100,000 rds through them. Also, he has been ramping up production over the last year or so. It seems he is doing well, giving accurate estimates and delivering on time without sacrificing quality, but again, it is still early.
From all that I can tell, he knows how to make a pistol accurate and is a good person to deal with. His rail system for the Beretta is nice and should be reliable. He also is a supporter of our sport, donating 2 pistols to be given away at the CMP awards. That is very cool if you ask me.
Steve Turner
It's my understanding that Dr. Nick isn't the builder. It's another fellow named George (IIRC). That said, their 1911's and M9's have earned a solid reputation among shooters in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. I've never inspected one closely enough to render an opinion, but the owners seem very happy with them.
I think that he's selling through either Champion Shooters, or maybe Champion's Choice - or you can order directly.
I think that he's selling through either Champion Shooters, or maybe Champion's Choice - or you can order directly.
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solomon grundy
I think that they use a rail system. Here's their site - http://www.mountaincompetitionpistols.com/index.html
Just awsome guns! I have the 1911 built by Dr. Nick. I had a Les Baer Bullseye wadcutter that didn't cut the mustard. I sent it to Dr. Nick and this thing shoots very tight groupes (about 1.2" on ranson rest), a beauty too.. Best of all, Dr. Nick is a nice guy, spends time talking to you. Try that with big makers like Les Baer.
usmcmba,
What kind of problems did you have with the Baer wadgun?
I am considering buying the Baer or the Mountain Competition pistol.
My concern with the CMP is finding a pistolsmith that can work on his unique rail system, if Dr.Nick is not around, or unavailable.
Thanks for any input you can give me on my decision.
What kind of problems did you have with the Baer wadgun?
I am considering buying the Baer or the Mountain Competition pistol.
My concern with the CMP is finding a pistolsmith that can work on his unique rail system, if Dr.Nick is not around, or unavailable.
Thanks for any input you can give me on my decision.
Hi x-mark!
If it were me, I just go straight to the Mountain Competition Pistol and I will explain why.
I have been shooting les baers for almost 10 years. I used to have a Premier II and also a Bullseye Wad Cutter with 1 1/2" guarantee . When I got my first LB, I was relatively new to shooting 1911's and called LB with some simple questions. I talked directly to Les Baer himself and he made the conversation feel like I was wasting his time. Also what bothered me later when I talked to him again at Camp Perry years later, he asked me what I have done to his gun?" with no clear explination for the issue I had asked him about (this by the way, this seems to be a normal response from him as other Les Baer owners has told me they had similar treatment). Basically, buying a Les Baer, I don't think (or had experience) in good customer service. MCP is different. I have talked to Dr. Nick on many occassions. He would answer your questions and then some, very patient man I have to say.
Another downside to the Les Baer is that if you wanted parts from other manufacture put on, they may not do it. Les baer parts aren't all the best on the market you know. Also some services that later you may prefer like a "roll trigger" les baer may not be able to do (I asked and they told me it was a "possibility"). Basically I think a Les Baer is a great pistol as a starter gun, but as you start to have personal preferences like wanting a roll trigger (instead of crisp), other parts, basically a customized pistol, MCP is the way to go.
Also, on the LB Bullseye Wadcutter. I had put only about 10,000 through the pistol and I had sent it to Ed Masaki to put a roll trigger. He told me of some issues on the barrel/link that needed to be taken care of and I had to spend a couple of hundred for a tune up. I was very surprised with only so few rounds, already needing a tune up. This is when i got fed up with the LB and sent it to MCP for a complete makeover. It is ironic that I now have a Les Baer, the frame and slide only and everything else is parts installed by Dr. Nick. Gun shoots very nice, very accurate. I have tried to post pics but cannot for some reason. Anyone know how I can post the pics on here?
Anyway, you cannot go wrong w/ a MCP. The rail you mentioned, I understand you can replace it rather easily. I want to mention that I talked to Brian Zins, he told me that the rail is the way to go, but then too, Dr. Nick had talked me out of getting the rail for right now as the slide to receiver fit on the LB is still very tight. I will probably need to re-examine having the rail put on later when I send for a new trigger job.
Pleaes let me know if you have any other questions. Hope this gives you a good insight!
If it were me, I just go straight to the Mountain Competition Pistol and I will explain why.
I have been shooting les baers for almost 10 years. I used to have a Premier II and also a Bullseye Wad Cutter with 1 1/2" guarantee . When I got my first LB, I was relatively new to shooting 1911's and called LB with some simple questions. I talked directly to Les Baer himself and he made the conversation feel like I was wasting his time. Also what bothered me later when I talked to him again at Camp Perry years later, he asked me what I have done to his gun?" with no clear explination for the issue I had asked him about (this by the way, this seems to be a normal response from him as other Les Baer owners has told me they had similar treatment). Basically, buying a Les Baer, I don't think (or had experience) in good customer service. MCP is different. I have talked to Dr. Nick on many occassions. He would answer your questions and then some, very patient man I have to say.
Another downside to the Les Baer is that if you wanted parts from other manufacture put on, they may not do it. Les baer parts aren't all the best on the market you know. Also some services that later you may prefer like a "roll trigger" les baer may not be able to do (I asked and they told me it was a "possibility"). Basically I think a Les Baer is a great pistol as a starter gun, but as you start to have personal preferences like wanting a roll trigger (instead of crisp), other parts, basically a customized pistol, MCP is the way to go.
Also, on the LB Bullseye Wadcutter. I had put only about 10,000 through the pistol and I had sent it to Ed Masaki to put a roll trigger. He told me of some issues on the barrel/link that needed to be taken care of and I had to spend a couple of hundred for a tune up. I was very surprised with only so few rounds, already needing a tune up. This is when i got fed up with the LB and sent it to MCP for a complete makeover. It is ironic that I now have a Les Baer, the frame and slide only and everything else is parts installed by Dr. Nick. Gun shoots very nice, very accurate. I have tried to post pics but cannot for some reason. Anyone know how I can post the pics on here?
Anyway, you cannot go wrong w/ a MCP. The rail you mentioned, I understand you can replace it rather easily. I want to mention that I talked to Brian Zins, he told me that the rail is the way to go, but then too, Dr. Nick had talked me out of getting the rail for right now as the slide to receiver fit on the LB is still very tight. I will probably need to re-examine having the rail put on later when I send for a new trigger job.
Pleaes let me know if you have any other questions. Hope this gives you a good insight!
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
USMCMBA:
Given the exact same facts as you provide them, there is of course an entirely different perspective and explanation.
It is not unusual at all- in fact it is de rigeur a standard practice for any high-tolerance piece of equipment (from agricultural to zoological)- for the manufacturer to insist on *some* control over who does what with what to their machine.
Even the automobile manufacturers have limits to what kind of back-woods tinkering can be done before the warranties are voided.
Now, all of that aside, the main quesiton I have is the whole "rail system" concept.
Yes, demonstrated the way to go for Beretta M9 accurizing.
Am I to understand the MCP design uses rail fitting for an M1911 accuracy upgrade?
If so, what changes in design have been implemented to this system of accurizing since the failed attempts to do so in the 1960s-1970s?
I know absolutely nothing about the MCP guns, their design or capabilities. I am honestly curious- if there is a better mousetrap out there I would be interested in learning more . . .
Given the exact same facts as you provide them, there is of course an entirely different perspective and explanation.
It is not unusual at all- in fact it is de rigeur a standard practice for any high-tolerance piece of equipment (from agricultural to zoological)- for the manufacturer to insist on *some* control over who does what with what to their machine.
Even the automobile manufacturers have limits to what kind of back-woods tinkering can be done before the warranties are voided.
Now, all of that aside, the main quesiton I have is the whole "rail system" concept.
Yes, demonstrated the way to go for Beretta M9 accurizing.
Am I to understand the MCP design uses rail fitting for an M1911 accuracy upgrade?
If so, what changes in design have been implemented to this system of accurizing since the failed attempts to do so in the 1960s-1970s?
I know absolutely nothing about the MCP guns, their design or capabilities. I am honestly curious- if there is a better mousetrap out there I would be interested in learning more . . .
Hi Steve:
Please notice that in my earlier post I mentioned I do not have the rail (called the Geleise-Gewehre system.) Dr. Nick when he saw my Les Baer, said the slide to frame fit was still very tight and he did not think I needed one (no upselling from him as you can see). So on my next tune up/new roll trigger job, I will have him determine if I need the rail or not.
Brian Zins, when I spoke to him about the MCP, highly recommended Dr. Nick's pistol and the rail if I ever needed it.
Maybe MCP has a better explination of the rail, how it works on their website http://www.mountaincompetitionpistols.com/index.html, better yet, call Dr. Nick and he will explain all you want to know.
Hope this helps.
Please notice that in my earlier post I mentioned I do not have the rail (called the Geleise-Gewehre system.) Dr. Nick when he saw my Les Baer, said the slide to frame fit was still very tight and he did not think I needed one (no upselling from him as you can see). So on my next tune up/new roll trigger job, I will have him determine if I need the rail or not.
Brian Zins, when I spoke to him about the MCP, highly recommended Dr. Nick's pistol and the rail if I ever needed it.
Maybe MCP has a better explination of the rail, how it works on their website http://www.mountaincompetitionpistols.com/index.html, better yet, call Dr. Nick and he will explain all you want to know.
Hope this helps.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
I checked out the website before your last post, thanks.
1. "Dr." Nick is a chiropractor, right?
2. What has changed since the 1970s when the "rail system" was universally tried and rejected by all the top teams/shooters? Either 1) rails and slides now are of universally much poorer quality than 1970 or 2) the rail system has improved significanlty over good "old fashoined" hammer forging, CNC machining, and proper fitting. Neither one sounds very likely to me . . . again, maybe the "rail system" of 2008 is radically different from the "rail system" of 1970 but nothing I could find suggested such a radical change.
3. I sincerely hope we are not about to witness the "Tubb Effect*" for BE pistols . . .
Hey look I don't mean to be a buzzkill- whatever makes you feel better about your shooting is worth it- it's fundamentally a mental game, right? And I like the idea of rejecting any barrel that does not shoot a 0.8" group (how many times? under what conditions?). That is a Good Thing (but frankly, no big whoop as both Baer and RRA do the same). And I'm not sure how just focusing on a +- 0.005" tolerance on the hood- one of many critical factors- is Majic but you know.
The proof is always Ransom Rest testing, over time, with ten shot groups (not cherry picked!) etc.
Frankly, none of them do that for a fact.
Steve
*(google up Tubb and moly coating)
1. "Dr." Nick is a chiropractor, right?
2. What has changed since the 1970s when the "rail system" was universally tried and rejected by all the top teams/shooters? Either 1) rails and slides now are of universally much poorer quality than 1970 or 2) the rail system has improved significanlty over good "old fashoined" hammer forging, CNC machining, and proper fitting. Neither one sounds very likely to me . . . again, maybe the "rail system" of 2008 is radically different from the "rail system" of 1970 but nothing I could find suggested such a radical change.
3. I sincerely hope we are not about to witness the "Tubb Effect*" for BE pistols . . .
Hey look I don't mean to be a buzzkill- whatever makes you feel better about your shooting is worth it- it's fundamentally a mental game, right? And I like the idea of rejecting any barrel that does not shoot a 0.8" group (how many times? under what conditions?). That is a Good Thing (but frankly, no big whoop as both Baer and RRA do the same). And I'm not sure how just focusing on a +- 0.005" tolerance on the hood- one of many critical factors- is Majic but you know.
The proof is always Ransom Rest testing, over time, with ten shot groups (not cherry picked!) etc.
Frankly, none of them do that for a fact.
Steve
*(google up Tubb and moly coating)
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visitor
Steve,
1. Does being a chiropractor make "Dr." Nick a bad gunsmith? We're not interested in his qualifications to perform thoracic surgery. In classical logic a statement can be true, false or meaningless. Your statement # 1 is meaningless.
2. No comment.
3. Has Tubb been refuted while we have all been sleeping? I just read several articles which seem to confirm (not prove) longer barrel life, longer intervals between cleanings and improved accuracy. I'd be thrilled to see you set up a proper double blind test with a sufficiently large sample. I don't have time to do it myself, having to go out and earn a living and all.
The makers of the Marvel conversion have historically rejected R-R testing in favor of hands and sandbags. Go figure!
1. Does being a chiropractor make "Dr." Nick a bad gunsmith? We're not interested in his qualifications to perform thoracic surgery. In classical logic a statement can be true, false or meaningless. Your statement # 1 is meaningless.
2. No comment.
3. Has Tubb been refuted while we have all been sleeping? I just read several articles which seem to confirm (not prove) longer barrel life, longer intervals between cleanings and improved accuracy. I'd be thrilled to see you set up a proper double blind test with a sufficiently large sample. I don't have time to do it myself, having to go out and earn a living and all.
The makers of the Marvel conversion have historically rejected R-R testing in favor of hands and sandbags. Go figure!
quote from an article
Dr. Abrishamian, who is a biochemist and physician specializing in reading and analyzing blood chemistry at Chester Woods CFS Center PA in Chester, New Jersey, is a veteran pistol shooter who relies on shooting and gun-building as a “therapeutic escape” from his intense medical profession of dealing with disease.
http://blog.grrpc.com/2008/07/28/grrpc- ... onors.aspx
http://www.njpistol.com/shooters/abrish ... rofile.htm
google nick abrishamian
Dr. Abrishamian, who is a biochemist and physician specializing in reading and analyzing blood chemistry at Chester Woods CFS Center PA in Chester, New Jersey, is a veteran pistol shooter who relies on shooting and gun-building as a “therapeutic escape” from his intense medical profession of dealing with disease.
http://blog.grrpc.com/2008/07/28/grrpc- ... onors.aspx
http://www.njpistol.com/shooters/abrish ... rofile.htm
google nick abrishamian
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
All right got it thanks.
Precision Shooting has done a couple of lab tgests of moly and found in both cases that
1. Force required to pull patches through was lessened
2. Barrel life not affected (total or effective)
3. Accuracy not affected
Hey, everybody's gotta make a living.
The question remains about rail systems for M1911s . . . Are we seeing a "New Better Way" with MCP system?
What's different about the MCP system and the old (abandoned) system?
Better yet- what are the USAMU and the USMC Marksmanship Unit doing?
Look, far be it from me to ever adopt the "If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix It" mentality . . . I believe in Better Living Through Tinkering as much as the next guy . . . but have the p[roblems with rail systems been solved?
I don't even shoot bullseye any more; just curious- is this really a New and Exciting Development or just the repackaging of the same old "shortcut" we saw back in the day?
Has anyone done repeated testing over 10,000 rounds or so (100,000 rounds is not necessary and unecessarily high standard) sandbag or RR or whatever; just controlled conditions?
IIRC one of the main problems with the rail systems was durability and the various "retightening" protocols to address it . . .
Precision Shooting has done a couple of lab tgests of moly and found in both cases that
1. Force required to pull patches through was lessened
2. Barrel life not affected (total or effective)
3. Accuracy not affected
Hey, everybody's gotta make a living.
The question remains about rail systems for M1911s . . . Are we seeing a "New Better Way" with MCP system?
What's different about the MCP system and the old (abandoned) system?
Better yet- what are the USAMU and the USMC Marksmanship Unit doing?
Look, far be it from me to ever adopt the "If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix It" mentality . . . I believe in Better Living Through Tinkering as much as the next guy . . . but have the p[roblems with rail systems been solved?
I don't even shoot bullseye any more; just curious- is this really a New and Exciting Development or just the repackaging of the same old "shortcut" we saw back in the day?
Has anyone done repeated testing over 10,000 rounds or so (100,000 rounds is not necessary and unecessarily high standard) sandbag or RR or whatever; just controlled conditions?
IIRC one of the main problems with the rail systems was durability and the various "retightening" protocols to address it . . .
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2650 Plus
Mountain pistols
Steve, I shot competition through out the 60s and 70s And never heard a word about rail typy accuracy jobs. I did spend time with Frank Green and his electric triggered free pistol. I liked the trigger but the pistol sat too high in my hand and I just shot the hammerli with the heavy barrel and made do. Giles did some work on a special method he developed to keep the slide tight but I never heard a single complaint about the way his heavy slides shot. Many matches were won by them at all levels. So, what is this information you have about slide rails being rejected and who shot them and who rejected them ? Good Shooting Bill Horton
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solomon grundy
I've seen David Sam's rail system but I haven't seen MCP's. Sam's isn't a full length rail. It's not like an acc-u-rail. The aligning elements might be better described as struts.
Here's a loose description of the MCP rail system
Dr. Nick's comments
Here's a loose description of the MCP rail system
To remove the play between the frame & slide, Doc uses a proprietary inletted rail system made of a special alloy. There is absolutely zero play between the slide and frame, yet the gun cycles very smoothly, even with reduced loads. Unlike the method of using inletted steel plates to accurize the 92, after extensive use, Doc’s rails can be replaced for a few bucks; restoring the original frame to slide fit.
Dr. Nick's comments
“I initially came up with a rail system for the Beretta. The frame and slide never touch each other, meaning the frame never gets battered and that results in longer life and improved accuracy.”
“Just like the German railroad guns, when these parts move in a straight line, the twisting motion of the gun is eliminated, giving you a chance for a second shot in rapid fire. You fire the gun, it goes straight up and falls right back into place for the next shot,” he explained.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
O.K. now we're back to square one.
The M9/92FS (the 9mm "Beretta Style" service pistol) accurizing was a different issue.
My original question way back when was all about using rail systems on the M1911 (the 45 ACP "Colt Style" service and Wadgun pistols).
Solomon I think your information above is about the 92FS/M9 accurizing system?
I found the MCP websight kind of confusing in this regard . . . you click on a picture of the M1911 gun and specs for the M9/92FS come up . . .
I have a Dave Sams "rail gun" for my M9 and it works great; i think rail systems are pretty much standard for the (aluminum frmed, OBTW) 9mm.
Rail systems for the (steel framed) M1911 are a different story?
The M9/92FS (the 9mm "Beretta Style" service pistol) accurizing was a different issue.
My original question way back when was all about using rail systems on the M1911 (the 45 ACP "Colt Style" service and Wadgun pistols).
Solomon I think your information above is about the 92FS/M9 accurizing system?
I found the MCP websight kind of confusing in this regard . . . you click on a picture of the M1911 gun and specs for the M9/92FS come up . . .
I have a Dave Sams "rail gun" for my M9 and it works great; i think rail systems are pretty much standard for the (aluminum frmed, OBTW) 9mm.
Rail systems for the (steel framed) M1911 are a different story?