This 4-H shooting Sports Leader has a question for you all.
We had 18 shooters at our session this year. The biggest problem I have with them is maintaining their cheek weld until the pellet exits the barrel. I had them say "Banana Split" very slowly before they raised their cheek off the stock which worked for a while. It seems as the session went along the phrase was being said in record time and the cheek was off the stock as soon as the trigger was squeesed. Yes, the shooter put another round in the white and told me their sights were off again. I thought about two sided carpet tape but put that idea out of my head very quickly. What have y'all done in the past to help correct this issue? Mike
Follow Through
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Re: Follow Through
There are some 'students' that will thoroughly understand the importance of follow-through (I assume that you have illustrated the negative and positive impact that follow-through will produce) and then there are some that will never understand and implement it. You haven't stated that the 'students' have been properly instructed as to the correct shot process. If they have, and they are not following procedure, then I would say that you have eighteen 'students' that will never progress any further than where they are now. The student that has the where-with-all and the fire-in-the-belly to excel will listen intently and ask questions. Those that don't want to excel will eventually drop out.MikeG1 wrote:This 4-H shooting Sports Leader has a question for you all.
We had 18 shooters at our session this year. The biggest problem I have with them is maintaining their cheek weld until the pellet exits the barrel. I had them say "Banana Split" very slowly before they raised their cheek off the stock which worked for a while. It seems as the session went along the phrase was being said in record time and the cheek was off the stock as soon as the trigger was squeesed. Yes, the shooter put another round in the white and told me their sights were off again. I thought about two sided carpet tape but put that idea out of my head very quickly. What have y'all done in the past to help correct this issue? Mike
There really isn't any more that you can do (providing that you have offered all the necessary instruction). In my experience, there is a very small percentage of kids that have the 'built-in ability' to pick up shooting technique. And out of that very small percentage there is only a small spattering that will continue on to become successful. Some get - and some never will.
Good luck!
Matt
If they move their face off the gun, they are doing it for a reason. Even if they don't know why they are doing it, there's a reason behind their action.
After all, you want them to follow through for a reason. So their reason for coming off must be more important to them - even subliminally - so that they prefer their reason over yours.
I'm glad you didn't pursue the double-sided sticky tape scheme - although that would strengthen their resolve to stay on, the reason would have been all wrong!
You are almost certainly a more experienced shooting coach than I am (although possibly not as experienced in educational techniques) so you should be able to think up a number of apparently good reasons, from their point of view, for coming off. Examine them all, and try to overcome them, not by coercion (eg. sticky tape, or telling them they won't be any good if they persist) but by increasing the power of your reason over theirs.
That's the hard part. I can't help with that because I don't know enough about teaching shooting. But I can suggest something in general terms, straight from the educational texbooks, and that is that learning a skill is a sequential thing. If you try to learn a poem for example, then it's fairly well known that the few words at the end of each line act as a trigger to the memory for the first few words of the next. This explains why, even after a student has thoroughly learned the piece, and can recite it flawlessly, it's very difficult for them to pick up the poem starting from the middle. You find that they will internally walk through the whole poem from the beginning until they get to the point at which you want them to start, then they'll be OK thereafter. What came before guides what comes after.
So there's a stimulus-response action going on. The stimulus in this case is the squeezing of the trigger and the bang (actually, it's up to you to decide which of these is actually the stimulus!). Your task is to help them to produce the correct response, staying on, rather then the incorrect one, coming off. Your "banana split" mantra is close, but it has nothing to do with the skill they are exercising. So it's irrelevant - "Oh, he wants us to talk about dessert at this point".
How about suggesting to them that they try to see where the shot went by looking through the sight? Just a suggestion, which is an action they need to perform after the shot has gone, which keeps them on. You may be able to come up with better actions for them. Remember that you can't ask them not to do something and expect them to not do it! You have to give them a real action, related to the task, something they can actually do, which will keep them on.
After all, you want them to follow through for a reason. So their reason for coming off must be more important to them - even subliminally - so that they prefer their reason over yours.
I'm glad you didn't pursue the double-sided sticky tape scheme - although that would strengthen their resolve to stay on, the reason would have been all wrong!
You are almost certainly a more experienced shooting coach than I am (although possibly not as experienced in educational techniques) so you should be able to think up a number of apparently good reasons, from their point of view, for coming off. Examine them all, and try to overcome them, not by coercion (eg. sticky tape, or telling them they won't be any good if they persist) but by increasing the power of your reason over theirs.
That's the hard part. I can't help with that because I don't know enough about teaching shooting. But I can suggest something in general terms, straight from the educational texbooks, and that is that learning a skill is a sequential thing. If you try to learn a poem for example, then it's fairly well known that the few words at the end of each line act as a trigger to the memory for the first few words of the next. This explains why, even after a student has thoroughly learned the piece, and can recite it flawlessly, it's very difficult for them to pick up the poem starting from the middle. You find that they will internally walk through the whole poem from the beginning until they get to the point at which you want them to start, then they'll be OK thereafter. What came before guides what comes after.
So there's a stimulus-response action going on. The stimulus in this case is the squeezing of the trigger and the bang (actually, it's up to you to decide which of these is actually the stimulus!). Your task is to help them to produce the correct response, staying on, rather then the incorrect one, coming off. Your "banana split" mantra is close, but it has nothing to do with the skill they are exercising. So it's irrelevant - "Oh, he wants us to talk about dessert at this point".
How about suggesting to them that they try to see where the shot went by looking through the sight? Just a suggestion, which is an action they need to perform after the shot has gone, which keeps them on. You may be able to come up with better actions for them. Remember that you can't ask them not to do something and expect them to not do it! You have to give them a real action, related to the task, something they can actually do, which will keep them on.
Mike
The problem with The "banana split" technique is that it changes their focus from the task at hand and moves it to a catch phrase. The purpose of follow through, or focus through which is more correct, is more about stopping shot anticipation than waiting for the pellet to leave the barrel. When you change their focus somewhere else, you lose the intensity of the hold. The payoff for better focus through is better scores. You should tell your shooters to keep the same mental and physical intensity for 2 seconds. If they still resist have them focus through for an extentended time(5-7 seconds). I have also used the method of having shooters watch the hole develop in the bull. You can see it if you focus on the sight picture. Do not alow them to just hold the rifle up. The focus through must be an extention of the hold before the shot broke. you may have to work with the shooter one on one to make sure they get it. Most of the time, if one of them uses the method and shows improvement , the others will follow.
Jim Holtman
The problem with The "banana split" technique is that it changes their focus from the task at hand and moves it to a catch phrase. The purpose of follow through, or focus through which is more correct, is more about stopping shot anticipation than waiting for the pellet to leave the barrel. When you change their focus somewhere else, you lose the intensity of the hold. The payoff for better focus through is better scores. You should tell your shooters to keep the same mental and physical intensity for 2 seconds. If they still resist have them focus through for an extentended time(5-7 seconds). I have also used the method of having shooters watch the hole develop in the bull. You can see it if you focus on the sight picture. Do not alow them to just hold the rifle up. The focus through must be an extention of the hold before the shot broke. you may have to work with the shooter one on one to make sure they get it. Most of the time, if one of them uses the method and shows improvement , the others will follow.
Jim Holtman
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Mike,
I don't have air rifle experience, but .22 rifle instruction. When I was teaching (I started them prone) I was down with them watching their squeeze and follow-through. Invariable, when the follow-through was poor it was preceded by a jerked trigger. I would teach the squeeze and follow-through together. They did not have a spotting scope, so there was no where to look for the bullet hole. My assistants would spot or we would shoot five shot groups and pull the target. I was instructing them without looking at the target. I just worked on the basics. When a rifle wasn't sighted in for them I would score the target by centering the group. This way they didn't need to worry about where the group was only that they had a small one.
Ben
I don't have air rifle experience, but .22 rifle instruction. When I was teaching (I started them prone) I was down with them watching their squeeze and follow-through. Invariable, when the follow-through was poor it was preceded by a jerked trigger. I would teach the squeeze and follow-through together. They did not have a spotting scope, so there was no where to look for the bullet hole. My assistants would spot or we would shoot five shot groups and pull the target. I was instructing them without looking at the target. I just worked on the basics. When a rifle wasn't sighted in for them I would score the target by centering the group. This way they didn't need to worry about where the group was only that they had a small one.
Ben
Thanks for all your replys. The heads come off the stock quickly so they can see where their shot hit and I know this is a natural thing for them to do. Of the 18, only about 4 or five of them do this and they are all Junior shooters. All our shooters were Youth last year and most of them advanced to Junior this year. It is funny that last year they all followed through in the proper manner and all shot well. I told them at the start of the year they were entering a whole new ball game with the standing, sitting and kneeling positions and they needed to apply all their skills they aquired from last year. There were a lot shots in the white during the first session but most of them came on at the end. Most of them had never shot in these positions before except prone. Our Air Rifle session is over now but this old Marine is going to work with them and help each to be a better shooter. I plan to go the line and let them watch me shoot 10 rounds at prone. I"m going to come up on half the shoots and let them see the results. I tell you, I sure hope I'm on that day. By the way, I shoot a 753 and have a 887 on the way and I must say I'm not going to miss that pumping at all. Don't get me wrong, I love my 753 and I know if a round goes wild it is my fault and I try to figure out what I did wrong.
I found Target Talk while surfing 4-H Shooting Sports on the internet and I'm very pleased to have found it. I hope to become one of you in the near future. Good day for now, Mike
I found Target Talk while surfing 4-H Shooting Sports on the internet and I'm very pleased to have found it. I hope to become one of you in the near future. Good day for now, Mike
Why?MikeG1 wrote:.., I love my 753 and I know if a round goes wild it is my fault and I try to figure out what I did wrong.
Why are some of us so interested in learning how to err? I don't think I've ever seen anyone write, "If I shoot a ten, I try to figure out what I did right."
Sorry, but I promote highlighting the positive and forgetting about the errors. If you study them too much they become ingrained...
To the original issue...
Would there be any value in trying to have them perform an immediate dry fire sequence following the completion of the shot? There would not be the "click" of a normal dry fire, but you could possibly have them hold the sight picture and go through the trigger operation for a subsequent shot.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Things of Interest to Bullseye (and International) Competitors
A couple of comments / suggestions. One is to remove the scope - they then have no tendancy to scope the shot. The next is to get them to call each shot without scoping, and then get them to scope for confirmation etc. With good follow through the gun should return to the right place and the shooter should be able to call the shot location accurately.
My way of teaching follow through is a combination of that, plus highlighting the fact that people tend to start anticipating shot release and actually relax, come of aim to scope, before the shot is actually released - result equals a poor shot.
Rob.
My way of teaching follow through is a combination of that, plus highlighting the fact that people tend to start anticipating shot release and actually relax, come of aim to scope, before the shot is actually released - result equals a poor shot.
Rob.
Of the 18, only about 4 or five of them do this and they are all Junior shooters. All our shooters were Youth last year and most of them advanced to Junior this year. It is funny that last year they all followed through in the proper manner and all shot well. I told them at the start of the year they were entering a whole new ball game with the standing, sitting and kneeling positions and they needed to apply all their skills they aquired from last year. There were a lot shots in the white during the first session but most of them came on at the end. Most of them had never shot in these positions before except prone. Our Air Rifle session is over now but this old Marine is going to work with them and help each to be a better shooter. I plan to go the line and let them watch me shoot 10 rounds at prone. I"m going to come up on half the shoots and let them see the results. I tell you, I sure hope I'm on that day. By the way, I shoot a 753 and have a 887 on the way and I must say I'm not going to miss that pumping at all. Don't get me wrong, I love my 753 and I know if a round goes wild it is my fault and I try to figure out what I did wrong.
In your original post you stated 'We had 18 shooters at our session this year. The biggest problem I have with them is maintaining their cheek weld until the pellet exits the barrel'. This inferred that ALL eighteen shooters were not following through. Then in your followup post you state that 'only about 4 or five of them do this'. You have presented a conflicting case.
It is very noticeable when someone is not implementing proper follow through. Why not take those shooters (that are seemingly not following through) and give them some POSITIVE and ENCOURAGING instruction?
Your idea of 'going to the line' will not accomplish what you think you might accomplish. Don't do it! You are a coach and you need to provide the proper instruction to help your students succeed. 'Going to the line' is in YOUR past - keep it there.
Your mentioning that 'they were entering a whole new ball game with the standing, sitting and kneeling positions' is another negative that only creates doubt in their minds. They need encouragement and nourishment.
Again, if you want to be a great coach and see kids succeed, then be that great coach. Your interest in 'showing them up' has no place in the clubhouse with them around.
I would highly recommend getting in touch with Marcus Raab - he is the National Coach Trainer who can provide you with some valuable instruction to become a great coach.
Good luck.
Matt
In your original post you stated 'We had 18 shooters at our session this year. The biggest problem I have with them is maintaining their cheek weld until the pellet exits the barrel'. This inferred that ALL eighteen shooters were not following through. Then in your followup post you state that 'only about 4 or five of them do this'. You have presented a conflicting case.
It is very noticeable when someone is not implementing proper follow through. Why not take those shooters (that are seemingly not following through) and give them some POSITIVE and ENCOURAGING instruction?
Your idea of 'going to the line' will not accomplish what you think you might accomplish. Don't do it! You are a coach and you need to provide the proper instruction to help your students succeed. 'Going to the line' is in YOUR past - keep it there.
Your mentioning that 'they were entering a whole new ball game with the standing, sitting and kneeling positions' is another negative that only creates doubt in their minds. They need encouragement and nourishment.
Again, if you want to be a great coach and see kids succeed, then be that great coach. Your interest in 'showing them up' has no place in the clubhouse with them around.
I would highly recommend getting in touch with Marcus Raab - he is the National Coach Trainer who can provide you with some valuable instruction to become a great coach.
Good luck.
Matt
Two things to consider are the physical fit of the rifle, and the purpose of follow through.
If the shooter cannot get their face tightly on the stock and see through the sight you need to modify the cheek piece (small pieces of old targets and duct tape) so the shooter has a proper cheek rest. You often find small shooters have NO cheek weld and so cannot maintain folow through as their head is bobbing all over.
They also need to know that the reason for follow thru is so they can call their shot, and that looking at the target with or without a scope to see where the shot hit is the wrong thing to do. Looking at the target is ONLY to confirm that they called their shot properly. We use a target glued to a piece of roof flashing, and small punched ot pieces of magnetic business cards to have the shooter call their shot after each shot. Simply place the punchout on the target, then after ten shots compare the actual target to the called shots on the target glued to the tin. This gives the shooter a reason to keep looking thru the sights after they fire the shot.
If the shooter cannot get their face tightly on the stock and see through the sight you need to modify the cheek piece (small pieces of old targets and duct tape) so the shooter has a proper cheek rest. You often find small shooters have NO cheek weld and so cannot maintain folow through as their head is bobbing all over.
They also need to know that the reason for follow thru is so they can call their shot, and that looking at the target with or without a scope to see where the shot hit is the wrong thing to do. Looking at the target is ONLY to confirm that they called their shot properly. We use a target glued to a piece of roof flashing, and small punched ot pieces of magnetic business cards to have the shooter call their shot after each shot. Simply place the punchout on the target, then after ten shots compare the actual target to the called shots on the target glued to the tin. This gives the shooter a reason to keep looking thru the sights after they fire the shot.