TargetTalk

As none of the gun dealers in my country stock specialist pistols for the 50m free pistol event and no one is prepared to sell me their pistols second hand, I have a simple question.

According to the ISSF rules, can I use a 5 shot semi-automatic .22LR pistol like the Walther GSP for the 50m free pistol event?

50 m ISSF pistol:
1. calibre .22 Long Rifle
2. open sights
3. no wrist support from handgrip
4. to be loaded with one shot only.
5. no limits to dimensions, mass, trigger weight, shape etc

in the case of a ISSF Rimfire pistol point 4 is important.

greetings Hans

Yes, but in accordance with rule 8.16.0 you can only load 1 shot at a time.

It is possible, if you only load one shot at a time. But you're in for a hell of a task competing aginst others using real FP's.
However, it's not impossible. A swedish female shooter took her Unique and shot 540 in a FP event (a district championship i think) some years ago. And I actually think a german officer did +500p with his Luger sidearm during the 1912 olympics (this is just something I "think" I remember have seen somewhere).

I've seen people do 540 with a SIG 210-5 in 9mm, just for the fun of it. And if I remember right, T.D. Smith was said to have won his World Championship with a .22 kit on a 1911...

At the last couple of USASNC, several competitors were indeed using a spattering of "Bullseye Guns" Hammerli 208s, S&W 41s, etc. I don't think any of them (reality check? anyone know for sure?) were able to complete the match though- most (all?) were DQd for frame hits etc.

Hypocrite Alert: My back up FP gun is indeed a Hammerli 208s, my SP gun. Have no freakin idea what I can do with it at 50m iron sights though- but I do have my "come ups" figured out!

Steve Swartz

The Mayleigh Cup competition (an international 'postal match') is fired at 50 metres on the ISSF precision target using .22 pistols.
At least in Canada, selection for the team is based upon the slow fire scores posted in the .22 stage of the NRA Conventional Pistol 2700 match.
Most, if not all, of the selected competitors use the same pistol for the Mayleigh Cup as they used for qualifying (ie in the .22 stage of the 2700). Those (again, in Canada) are primarily ISSF-legal Standard Pistols. I know at least one competitor who used a Walther GSP. I used a Hammerli 208. My scores with the 208 were at least as good as my Free Pistol scores using a Toz 35 (but that is not saying much, as my FP shooting is abysmal). However, other team members posted some respectable scores.
So, not only can you use your GSP for Free Pistol at 50 m (single-loading, of course), but - based upon results from the Mayleigh Cup competition - you can, skill permitting, fire scores in the high eighties and low nineties.
(The American team posted higher scores, on average, but I understand most of the team members used dot sights (rather than open sights) that are not be permitted for ISSF Free Pistol.)

I must admit I am relying on second hand information but to my recolection Frank Green took the silver medal with a free pistol of his own design equiped with an electronic trigger, while TD Smith competed with a model 41 s&w in the same competition at the Tokyo olimpics in 1964. I have no idea how TD placed. Good Shooting Bill Horton

I recently shot free pistol with my IZH-35M. I dropped about 30 points on the avaerage score I get when using the Morini free pistol. Interestingly, I had fewer outer ring hits with the IZH than with the free pistol.
On the other hand I have only recently started free pistol and I know I will improve once I get used to minimal trigger weight. My score with the IZH is probably as good as it will get.

I can remember seeing a shooter get a (Australian) B grade score for Free Pistol using a Walther OSP with .22 short ammunition.

Spencer

I set myself a goal that I wasn't allowed to buy
a free pistol until I shot a 'B' grade score (510+)
in free pistol. I shot 519 with my AW93 at an open
competition, and managed 528 in a club match.

It is also interesting to see your competitors
reaction to having empty shells flying during
a free pistol match....

I shoot a IZH 35 in FP... We only have 4 outdoor FP matches a year, plus 4 indoor matches , so I just couldn't justify the cash outlay fo a specific FP.
I DID however make a rib with a new front sight on it that goes on top of the pistol( screws into the existing scope mount holes) that extends the front sight out about an inch beyond the bbl.
That sure helped my scores.
I really enjoy FP, and no, I'll never make Master with this set-up, but it's challenging and give me 8 more matches a year.

Mike Taylor wrote:The Mayleigh Cup competition (an international 'postal match') is fired at 50 metres on the ISSF precision target using .22 pistols.
.
.
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(The American team posted higher scores, on average, but I understand most of the team members used dot sights (rather than open sights) that are not be permitted for ISSF Free Pistol.)

Does anyone have a link to the Mayleigh Cup rules. I always thought that you had to use ISSF Standard Pistols, which would obviously not include dot sights.

Maybe the rules have changed (or I could have been mistaken) but it would be interesting to read them.

David Levene wrote:...Does anyone have a link to the Mayleigh Cup rules. I always thought that you had to use ISSF Standard Pistols, which would obviously not include dot sights.

Maybe the rules have changed (or I could have been mistaken) but it would be interesting to read them.

Shh, David it's a secret. Actually it is the 'Mayleigh Challence Cup', but this will not you get any further on Googlewhen it comes to rules.

My understanding is that ISSF 'standard' pistols comply, but Mayleigh Cup pistols might not comply with ISSF. E.g. pistols allowed (in the past) would not fit in the ISSF box.

If anybody knows of a download for the rules, I too would like to know.

Spencer

p.s. Australia has won the 'Mayleigh Challence Cup competition in the past.
S

A search on TT for "Mayleigh" gave (amongst other threads):

Cecil Rhodes’ message on TT:

"Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:42 pm Post subject: Some Info
The Mayleigh Team is comprised of the top 10 shooters and 2 alternates selected from the top 15 shooters in the slow fire portions of the .22 NRA Conventional Pistol Match (The Slow Fire Match 135 and the slow fire stage of the .22 NMC Match 136). There is a single 10 shot string fired on the B-17 target at 50 meters for all 15 shooters. This score is added to the 3 standard NRA slow fire strings from the match to select the top 10 shooters. The Mayleigh Match is then fired as 3, 10 shot strings at 50 meters on the B-17 target. Firearm allowed is NRA rule 3.4 (Conventional .22 pistol). Total scores for all 10 firing members for all 3 strings comprise the Team score for the match."

Ed Hall’s message on TT:

"Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:50 am Post subject:
The Course of Fire is described as: "30 shots, slow fire, 50 meters, at B-17 targets" which are the "NRA 25/50 Meter UIT Pistol Targets." You can read the program info in a pdf file at: http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules_imag ... Pistol.pdf which is the National Matches pistol program for this year. "

Extract from the above reference:
"C-4. MAYLEIGH CUP INTERNATIONAL POSTAL TEAM MATCH:
Fired: Friday, July 15, 9 a.m.; Petrarca Range
Open To
One team consisting of a Team Captain, Adjutant, ten firers
and two alternates, from countries invited to participate with
the U.S. Only the U.S. Team will fire at Camp Perry.
U.S. Team Officials
2004 Team Captain: Frank Wukovits
2004 Team Adjutant: Art Mueller/Chuck Wheeler
Selection of U.S. Team
From scores in Match 135 and slow fire stage of Match 136.
Team Officials may not be firing members of the Team.
Course of Fire: 30 shots, slow fire, 50 meters, at B-17 targets.
Firearms Allowed: Rule 3.4."

While the selection procedure described by Cecil differs from that described in the 2005 Match Bulletin, the latter is similar to the process used to select the Canadian team.
Of real interest is that the US allows dot or telescopic sights, a trigger pull as light as two pounds (907.2 grams), and a barrel length of up to ten inches (and a sight radius of up to ten inches, too) - not your ISSF Standard pistol, although a Standard pistol would qualify under the US rules. (The Canadian team members can use the same specification pistol as the US but as I mentioned earlier, some, if not most, use their ISSF-legal Standard pistol.)

Thanks for the references Mike. I also found this interesting short history of the event (via Google).

David Levene wrote:Thanks for the references Mike. I also found this interesting short history of the event (via Google).

I wonder what happened in 1990. Change in target? The scores dropped from 28xx to 26xx

Somewhere in there (1989-1990), the targets were changed from the NRA 50-yard slow fire target to the ISSF 50-metre precision target. Another post that I read (but, as yet, cannot relocate) indicated this was to accomodate the Canadians who were, at that time, switching from shooting USA NRA Conventional Pistol to shooting ISSF events at their National Championships.
Mike

Thanks MIke.

That should also answer the original question about shooting 50M pistol with a standard pistol. A Mayleigh Cup score of 2600-2700 implies that a very good shooter using a standard pistol (with or without an optical sight) should be able to score 520-540 in 50M pistol competition.

For those interested, the 2006 individual scores were:

279
266
270
275
271
255
271
264
234
272
-----
2657 Team Score

On a personal note, I've scored in the 530's with my Hammerli 208s with iron sights at 50 yards on the 50 yard reduced International Free Pistol target. As Steve does, I also use my 208s as the backup for my FP (Toz-35 in my case).

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things