TSA & Air Cylinders

randy1952 · Post by **randy1952** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:18 am

Has anyone flown lately with the airgun cylinders? I head last month through an unofficial source that airgun cylinders are barred from flights.

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:31 am

As far as I know, nobody has presented any infomration that anything has changed since the extensive thread on this quite a while back.

Yes, technically, they are "banned" since they can't be opened for visual inspection.

In practice if they are discharged you are following the spirit (not the wording) of the rule; if they are attached to the gun and you declare them as firearms 99+% of the time TSA won't even notice . . .

Is this an optimal situation?

No, because depending on who's on duty and how they choose to interpret/enforce the rule, you could end up losing your cylinders at the airport.

Steve Swartz

[on a tangential note- that's the problem with "administrative law" [sic] vs "real" law. Bureaucrats are pseudo-authorized to come up with "laws" out of thin air; subject to very little review and a whole lot of individual "interprefication." It's amazing how much "administrative law" we are bound by in this country . . . ]

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:34 am

Sorry in retrospect that rant wasn't particularly helpful!

Mail your cylinders to yourself at your hotel and then mail them to yourself at your home on the way back.

That's both the "law" [sic] abiding way to do it and the low-probability of loss way.

Steve

jrmcdaniel · Post by **jrmcdaniel** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:48 am

The "official" place to comment on TSA -- the TSA Blog! The disadvantage of commenting is that the de facto ("administrative") law is "it is OK as long as you don't have a separate tank" seems to be "working" pretty well. The de jur ("in fact") law -- no tanks unless you can inspect the inside -- might just be enforced because of the agitatiion.

Best,

Joe

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:37 am

In practice if you are going to fly with a cylinder, make sure its empty attach it to your pistol or rifle, do not bring a spare cylinder this is where the trouble will start, and don't prove how smart your are just say you have an air pistol angd it empty and keep your mouth shut in other words do not offer to remove the cylinder from the gun. Just answer any questions they have and don't volunteer extra info.

Every story of a problem that I have heard had to do with either the cylinder no being on the gun or a spare cylinder. YMMV

As long as its part of the gun they don't seem to have a problem, yes that could change, the most likely reason for it to change will be because someone impressing them and showing that they know more than the TSA guys do.

That said if you can you're probably better to just sending it by mail, (which ironically will mean it will most likely end up in the cargo hold of an aircraft, go figure).

B.T.Carstensen · Post by **B.T.Carstensen** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:59 am

The first time I flew with my rifle I mailed the cylinder to the OTC but I talked with some guys there and they gave the same advice that Richard H just gave.
So this last time that I flew I had my rifle in a soft gun case inside of my hard case and they never even looked in the soft sided case.
I could have had anything in that soft case and they didn't even look.

-Brian

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:45 am

For the "Belt and Suspenders" crowd of course we also have keep your cylinders on your gun *and* mail your spare cylinders to yourself . . .

Steve

(and Joe great points about the law and the likely repercussions from compalining about it. A certain phrase from Atlas Shrugged comes to mind about passing laws that no one can follow in order to make everyone a criminal . . . )

mikeschroeder · Post by **mikeschroeder** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:34 am

Hi

I would have thought that the easiest way to go would be to mail (fedex) etc your rifle and cylinders to yourself.

Mike
Wichita KS

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:07 pm

Good idea; has anyone done this for rifles or pistols?

We would want to post the items before departing, so we would have them available for training etc. Would a hotel desk clerk sign for a declared firearm? Are air guns even firearms? I haven't shipped one for a while . . . UPS used to insist on "next day air" (takes care of the timing issue) but don't they require an adult signature etc. at the other end?

Steve

Jeeze I remember shipping guns through the post office back in the day . . .

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:28 pm

Steve Swartz wrote:Good idea; has anyone done this for rifles or pistols?

We would want to post the items before departing, so we would have them available for training etc. Would a hotel desk clerk sign for a declared firearm? Are air guns even firearms? I haven't shipped one for a while . . . UPS used to insist on "next day air" (takes care of the timing issue) but don't they require an adult signature etc. at the other end?

Steve

Jeeze I remember shipping guns through the post office back in the day . . .

I shipped my AP and empty cylinders via Fedex to myself, care of the local Kinkos who will hold it for your pickup. Kinkos are open 24/7 and are part of Fedex. I called the receiving Kinkos to tell them that I was shipping them a package to be picked up by me. There were some instructions on filling out the shipping forms (which I can't remember) and that was it. Worked perfectly.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:13 pm

B.T.Carstensen wrote:The first time I flew with my rifle I mailed the cylinder to the OTC but I talked with some guys there and they gave the same advice that Richard H just gave.
So this last time that I flew I had my rifle in a soft gun case inside of my hard case and they never even looked in the soft sided case.
I could have had anything in that soft case and they didn't even look.

-Brian

What is the point of the soft gun case? A TSA inspector will want to see what is inside the soft gun case.

iow · Post by **iow** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:23 pm

A couple of years ago I took a FWB CO2 pistol & empty spare cylinders on a flight from Miami to Heathrow. I called Virgin Atlantic beforehand , who noted i was bringing it with me & I also called customs in London , to see what they had to say. They told me to declare it at Heathrow.
The X Ray of my suit case must have looked really dodgy , as it just contained the pistol in its hard case & a petrol remote controlled car !
As it turned out , no-one was bothered at Miami airport & there were no customs officers at Heathrow when we landed ! So i just walked through with it.
I now want to bring the pistol & cylinders back to Florida on my next trip. Would I be tempting fate to think it will be as easy as last time ? Or would it be easier just to ship it ?

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:22 am

iow wrote:A couple of years ago I took a FWB CO2 pistol & empty spare cylinders on a flight from Miami to Heathrow. I called Virgin Atlantic beforehand , who noted i was bringing it with me & I also called customs in London , to see what they had to say. They told me to declare it at Heathrow.
The X Ray of my suit case must have looked really dodgy , as it just contained the pistol in its hard case & a petrol remote controlled car !
As it turned out , no-one was bothered at Miami airport & there were no customs officers at Heathrow when we landed ! So i just walked through with it.
I now want to bring the pistol & cylinders back to Florida on my next trip. Would I be tempting fate to think it will be as easy as last time ? Or would it be easier just to ship it ?

Coming back to the US is easier as it seems all the other customs and security people worldwide have less problems with these cylinders than do the US TSA. The problem with cylinders seems to be only with the TSA.

mikeschroeder · Post by **mikeschroeder** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:07 pm

HI

TSA is worried that any container that they can't look into contains plastic explosives or some other method of damaging an airplane. Having worked LOW LEVEL security in college, it's your job to be suspicious of everyone.

I had a similar problem that was work related. If it hadn't been for the fact that the airport's head of security had worked at my company years before, I would have had to drive home from Shreveport.

I have had good luck with picking things up at UPS and Fedex. I haven't shipped a firearm, but computers etc it's worked well.

Mike
Wichita KS

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:07 pm

That's why they will let the exact same cylinders fly if you send them by mail or courrier in the exact same cargo holds. That's why they have xray machines that can seem inside those cylinders.

The excuse are old and lame at best, airport security in North America is all about the preception that they are doing something. For starters if they were serious about security it wouldn't be done by people making minimum wage.

My favorite is the big bin of confiscated liquids, these were confiscated because they could be explosives, so what do they do, they store hundreds of gallons of liquid which they took off people right there in the terminal, hmmm.

mikeschroeder · Post by **mikeschroeder** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:40 pm

Richard H wrote: The excuse are old and lame at best, airport security in North America is all about the preception that they are doing something. For starters if they were serious about security it would be done by people making minimum wage.

Reasons they have, GOOD reasons, they don't.

Didn't think about the whole "bin of death" they have on display at most airports. Love it

Mike
Wichita KS

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:41 pm

Hmmm . . . not sure how cutting their pay and benefits would result in higher qualified people.

The pay and benefits they are getting now don't seem to attract qualified people as it is . . . and we are certainly not getting our money's worth already.

Maybe if it were privatized in the first place.

Steve

[The lowest paid available TSA Aviation Inspector job I found currently open starts at $37,683.00 annually plus benefits; that's for a high school or GED. A military veteran with a bachelor's degree starts around $74,000. Airport level director jobs are all 6 figures to start. Now I know that's in US $ so knock it back a bit for $CDN but still not bad for the folks you see chekcing ID cards at the airport . . .]

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:50 pm

Woops it should be "wouldn't be done by minimum wage" its amazing how a couple of letters can make such a big difference.

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:29 am

As a federal govt employee, figuring the typical number of days worked per year and assuming a 40 hour week, looks like they are receiving about $20 per hour (not including benefits); a bit more than minimum wage. They receive a bit less during their training period if they are fresh out of high school but still not a bad days pay.

Veterans with advanced degrees of course make much more.

Steve

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:48 am

That's not bad I stand corrected.