How is it that I am getting worse groups as I go along?
Bit of frustration here.
First time few times I picked up the pistol (using a Izh46m), I was dropping pellets in the 9 ring with nice groups. Now in my 2nd thousand pellets the groups are lousy. 2" and all over the place... I am looking at the sights and have what I think is good trigger control. My wobble area seems better.., I know much more about the game and what it takes to get high scores. The only thing I can think is somehow I was snatching shots as a newbie and as my technique has evolved I am now in the game and not trying for snatch shots so my groups have opened up to be more representative of my hold..
yikes...
Also- if I put a 1/2" bull on a blank target I can group much better than the 2-1/2" or so of a filled to 7 ring target. I am holding center.
Fighting though first couple of thousand pellets..
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Steve Swartz
What is different between shooting at a blank card and shooting at a distraction target?
Besides the fact that you admit your performance is worse.
Why would this be the case?
You state an hypothesis that "as a newbie, you were snatching at shots" as a reason why your performance over time has dropped . . . how likely do you think that explanation is in terms of explaining why your performance against a blank card is better than a distraction card?
Do you think you are snatching when there is no bull to look at, and you are not snatching when there is a big black dot way out yonder?
Something is not adding up between your observations, and your explanations.
With respect, I think there is a fundamental flaw in your logic.
Perhaps we should start a discussion on 1) what you think is required to shoot a "perfect shot," and 2) describe the process of a properly executed "perfect shot."
I think once you get to that point (understanding fundamentally how a good shot process works) you will have a lot more success in analyzing and improving your performance, regardless of the different/particular issues over time!
Steve Swartz
Besides the fact that you admit your performance is worse.
Why would this be the case?
You state an hypothesis that "as a newbie, you were snatching at shots" as a reason why your performance over time has dropped . . . how likely do you think that explanation is in terms of explaining why your performance against a blank card is better than a distraction card?
Do you think you are snatching when there is no bull to look at, and you are not snatching when there is a big black dot way out yonder?
Something is not adding up between your observations, and your explanations.
With respect, I think there is a fundamental flaw in your logic.
Perhaps we should start a discussion on 1) what you think is required to shoot a "perfect shot," and 2) describe the process of a properly executed "perfect shot."
I think once you get to that point (understanding fundamentally how a good shot process works) you will have a lot more success in analyzing and improving your performance, regardless of the different/particular issues over time!
Steve Swartz
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JamesH
Progress
If your scores are declining you are not training properly.
There are many exercises to do rather than shooting a target with scoring rings - shooting on a blank target is the best start.
Most people would not recommend shooting centre hold in AP, its too hard to see the relationship between the sights.
There are many exercises to do rather than shooting a target with scoring rings - shooting on a blank target is the best start.
Most people would not recommend shooting centre hold in AP, its too hard to see the relationship between the sights.
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crosshairs
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:22 pm
I used to shoot only targets. I did not understand why some shooters shot blank cards, and I told myself that I would never shoot blank cards unless I understood why I have to do it. Turns out it was a good decision.
As I progressed, I realised I was going for the 10 with every single shot. That low level of tolerence for inaccuracy gradually manifested itself as a pent up feeling of stress and it proved counterproductive as I began to run out of nerves after a few shots.
Thinking back to the basics, I knew I had to adopt a method that made shooting 100 shots or more at a single session practical and sustainable. And that could only be done if I can take away the stress of aiming, and instead concentrate on a smooth shot. I told myself, that if I can land the shot on an arbitrary spot on the card, it doesn't matter where it lands, what matters is the process, and when that process is perfected, the arbitrary spot can be anywhere, it can be the 10 point ring. All it takes for the final touch is to align yourself, much like a sniper adjusting his windage.
Since then I have been shooting high 550 to low 560, up from high 540-low550.
As I progressed, I realised I was going for the 10 with every single shot. That low level of tolerence for inaccuracy gradually manifested itself as a pent up feeling of stress and it proved counterproductive as I began to run out of nerves after a few shots.
Thinking back to the basics, I knew I had to adopt a method that made shooting 100 shots or more at a single session practical and sustainable. And that could only be done if I can take away the stress of aiming, and instead concentrate on a smooth shot. I told myself, that if I can land the shot on an arbitrary spot on the card, it doesn't matter where it lands, what matters is the process, and when that process is perfected, the arbitrary spot can be anywhere, it can be the 10 point ring. All it takes for the final touch is to align yourself, much like a sniper adjusting his windage.
Since then I have been shooting high 550 to low 560, up from high 540-low550.
Bntii,
Interestingly I had a similar experience: clearly logged in my shooting diary. The whys and wherefores are relatively pointless - in my case getting a coach was the single most important step. Becasue I 'understood' what I was supposed to be doing but didn't actually know how to achieve it I was trying to juggle too many variables at once. Consequently they were never aligned properly - more importantly I was focussed on my score (as you are) and NOT on my process. Steve Swartz points this out all the time and he is right. My coach sorted out my stance and grip, gave me training goals and made me think about what I was doing and why in a constructive and focussed way. GET A COACH.
I discussed with him Steve's advice and he agreed that shooting blank cards and scoring my shot process performance was a good excercise - I still do it every time I get on the range.
So - in case there is any doubt in your mind I would say - get a coach.
Best
Mike
Oh yeah - BTW - dont forget to get a coach.
Interestingly I had a similar experience: clearly logged in my shooting diary. The whys and wherefores are relatively pointless - in my case getting a coach was the single most important step. Becasue I 'understood' what I was supposed to be doing but didn't actually know how to achieve it I was trying to juggle too many variables at once. Consequently they were never aligned properly - more importantly I was focussed on my score (as you are) and NOT on my process. Steve Swartz points this out all the time and he is right. My coach sorted out my stance and grip, gave me training goals and made me think about what I was doing and why in a constructive and focussed way. GET A COACH.
I discussed with him Steve's advice and he agreed that shooting blank cards and scoring my shot process performance was a good excercise - I still do it every time I get on the range.
So - in case there is any doubt in your mind I would say - get a coach.
Best
Mike
Oh yeah - BTW - dont forget to get a coach.
Working though frustration
I posted the above after a particularly frustrating session.
What has happened I now realize is I had traded errors- sending shots into high right for my favorite of old which was low left. It was really frustrating as the high right stuff could really go out there and it flies in the face of my hold getting better over time. This error came out of the blue and I had no ideal how to bring the shots in.
Understand I have been shooting for about 2 months BE and 1 month AP so I am really just starting to work this stuff out.
I am working it out.
One thing of interest for me just now is how to better define with accuracy my hold of choice- I am going to hold center but am finding I have trouble defining this hold with accuracy in the vertical. If I swap out some 10m rifle targets I group much better I am starting to see my better groups staying under 1" with 3 of five typically very close and two in orbit. When I am looking at the larger bull I often do not know If I am centered and have to lower to judge this. It may be I need more light down range..
I am shooting BE as well. I now find that I am holding the nine ring and largely getting shots there. I find the center hold really no problem in BE as I can define the hold area well. In AP it is a different story....
MY rudimentary shot plan:
Raise- define sight picture- brings to target and settle- try to pull the trigger.
As my hold is improving I am experimenting with constant pull of trigger- otherwise I am staging on and off as I get a good settled hold or snatching with some success. I am coming to believe that my improved hold is allowing me the time to practice better trigger work I have largely lost jerked shots low left.- they used to be fully half my shots with a nice group on bull and another low left.
Mike - seeing what you said above. I am largely obsessed with groups. My goal is to see a 1/2" groups shot consistently and to be honest I want them smaller than that.
What has happened I now realize is I had traded errors- sending shots into high right for my favorite of old which was low left. It was really frustrating as the high right stuff could really go out there and it flies in the face of my hold getting better over time. This error came out of the blue and I had no ideal how to bring the shots in.
Understand I have been shooting for about 2 months BE and 1 month AP so I am really just starting to work this stuff out.
I am working it out.
One thing of interest for me just now is how to better define with accuracy my hold of choice- I am going to hold center but am finding I have trouble defining this hold with accuracy in the vertical. If I swap out some 10m rifle targets I group much better I am starting to see my better groups staying under 1" with 3 of five typically very close and two in orbit. When I am looking at the larger bull I often do not know If I am centered and have to lower to judge this. It may be I need more light down range..
I am shooting BE as well. I now find that I am holding the nine ring and largely getting shots there. I find the center hold really no problem in BE as I can define the hold area well. In AP it is a different story....
MY rudimentary shot plan:
Raise- define sight picture- brings to target and settle- try to pull the trigger.
As my hold is improving I am experimenting with constant pull of trigger- otherwise I am staging on and off as I get a good settled hold or snatching with some success. I am coming to believe that my improved hold is allowing me the time to practice better trigger work I have largely lost jerked shots low left.- they used to be fully half my shots with a nice group on bull and another low left.
Mike - seeing what you said above. I am largely obsessed with groups. My goal is to see a 1/2" groups shot consistently and to be honest I want them smaller than that.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
You say your are interested only in group size, but when I read
It is good that you are beginning to think about a shot plan and what constitutes a perfect shot. It does need refinement, especially the part about 'trying to pull the trigger'. Staging on and off or snatching is definitely not the way to go.
There is some excellent reading on this site http://www.bullseyepistol.com/, especially the AMU Pistol Guide.
You might also take a look at Pistol Stuff in the Coaching & Info tab on this web site.
Good shooting.
I have to conclude that you are more interested in placement of shots on the target. If you don't know whether you are 'centered and have to lower', then you are occupied with looking at the bull and not with maintaining/refining sight alignment while building pressure on the trigger. Reread some of the earlier comments, especially Steve Swartz. Note his use of 'distraction bull'. It is distracting you from properly executing the shot.One thing of interest for me just now is how to better define with accuracy my hold of choice- I am going to hold center but am finding I have trouble defining this hold with accuracy in the vertical. If I swap out some 10m rifle targets I group much better I am starting to see my better groups staying under 1" with 3 of five typically very close and two in orbit. When I am looking at the larger bull I often do not know If I am centered and have to lower to judge this. It may be I need more light down range..
It is good that you are beginning to think about a shot plan and what constitutes a perfect shot. It does need refinement, especially the part about 'trying to pull the trigger'. Staging on and off or snatching is definitely not the way to go.
There is some excellent reading on this site http://www.bullseyepistol.com/, especially the AMU Pistol Guide.
You might also take a look at Pistol Stuff in the Coaching & Info tab on this web site.
Good shooting.
Thanks
Understood about concentrating on target as being less than Ideal.
Still find it interesting that I group best when I have the smallest target. I do maintain rigid attention to the front sight
I group best of all when I shoot to pellet holes or small dots. Somehow I am at this stage in the game getting better visual cues from very small targets.
Do practice on blank cards. I am about to start with more dry fire as well on blank wall/card
And yes - i now see the contradiction in the above- I do it seems want the "small groups" to be centered on the bull but I do not in fact group that well at all shooting at a full size bull.
The "try to pull trigger" was a bit of humor. I would have hoped that I did not know enough about shooting to have experienced "chicken finger" It seems that one is never too inexperienced to start having symptoms LOL
Still find it interesting that I group best when I have the smallest target. I do maintain rigid attention to the front sight
I group best of all when I shoot to pellet holes or small dots. Somehow I am at this stage in the game getting better visual cues from very small targets.
Do practice on blank cards. I am about to start with more dry fire as well on blank wall/card
And yes - i now see the contradiction in the above- I do it seems want the "small groups" to be centered on the bull but I do not in fact group that well at all shooting at a full size bull.
The "try to pull trigger" was a bit of humor. I would have hoped that I did not know enough about shooting to have experienced "chicken finger" It seems that one is never too inexperienced to start having symptoms LOL
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Steve Swartz
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.donthc
had been doing reflections for the past week.
i realised that in the pursuit of progress in shooting, i have forgotten about the most fundalmental aim of shooting. that is, to derive joy in shooting. Why do we have to agonize ourselves over a couple of points? Does it matter that much to convert all those 9s into 10s?
i can say that those who are shooting below 530 still have a lot of catching up on techniques. but i think those whose standards are above 540, would have already have the basic technique to shoot a perfect score of 600. after the 540 mark, technical problems will slowly change to psycological problems.
at that point, we will start having too much unnecessary thoughts when executing the shot process. we have effectively lost our "innocence" in shooting. shooting is no longer that carefree, as compared to when you have just started shooting. more often than not, your stagnation in progress is caused by that "excessive thoughts and hesitation" in executing the shot.
so why not just forget all of this and revert back to some "video-console style" shooting? juz aim and fire. aim and fire. removes all other thoughts in the process.
just my 2 cents worth.
i realised that in the pursuit of progress in shooting, i have forgotten about the most fundalmental aim of shooting. that is, to derive joy in shooting. Why do we have to agonize ourselves over a couple of points? Does it matter that much to convert all those 9s into 10s?
i can say that those who are shooting below 530 still have a lot of catching up on techniques. but i think those whose standards are above 540, would have already have the basic technique to shoot a perfect score of 600. after the 540 mark, technical problems will slowly change to psycological problems.
at that point, we will start having too much unnecessary thoughts when executing the shot process. we have effectively lost our "innocence" in shooting. shooting is no longer that carefree, as compared to when you have just started shooting. more often than not, your stagnation in progress is caused by that "excessive thoughts and hesitation" in executing the shot.
so why not just forget all of this and revert back to some "video-console style" shooting? juz aim and fire. aim and fire. removes all other thoughts in the process.
just my 2 cents worth.
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James.
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Steve Swartz
. . . at this point worrying about anything beyond:
- keeping your eye focused on the front sight,
- keeping the sights aligned, and
- perfecting your trigger control
is just going to slow you down and prevent further skills development.
No disrespect- we've all been there- but it looks like you are pretty much "flailing around" right now.
Steve Swartz
- keeping your eye focused on the front sight,
- keeping the sights aligned, and
- perfecting your trigger control
is just going to slow you down and prevent further skills development.
No disrespect- we've all been there- but it looks like you are pretty much "flailing around" right now.
Steve Swartz
Thank you all very much.
Steve- I appreciate it.
You have in a earlier post really put it quite well:
"you have 7-10 things to work on right now"
I like most read everything I could and as I progress I find simply 'knowing' the elements of a good shot and applying the elements to my shot plan are two different things.
I am going to back up a bit in my training and really try to practice for a good total shot plan on blank targets.
If I could float a question.
You left out hold in the three items to work on in you post just above.
Do I take it that these items trump a focus on a steady hold?
That is trying to lessen the wobble area?
I am currently shooting just under 500 in training and have shot no matches yet in AP.
Regards
You have in a earlier post really put it quite well:
"you have 7-10 things to work on right now"
I like most read everything I could and as I progress I find simply 'knowing' the elements of a good shot and applying the elements to my shot plan are two different things.
I am going to back up a bit in my training and really try to practice for a good total shot plan on blank targets.
If I could float a question.
You left out hold in the three items to work on in you post just above.
Do I take it that these items trump a focus on a steady hold?
That is trying to lessen the wobble area?
I am currently shooting just under 500 in training and have shot no matches yet in AP.
Regards
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fred.mannis
Re: Thank you all very much.
For you, right now, I would say yes.bntii wrote: If I could float a question.
You left out hold in the three items to work on in you post just above.
Do I take it that these items trump a focus on a steady hold?
That is trying to lessen the wobble area?
I am currently shooting just under 500 in training and have shot no matches yet in AP.
Some earlier discussions on wobble: http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... ght=#81037
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... ght=#80405