TargetTalk

I've stepped into the lower end of the Euro .22's with the recent purchase of a Benelli MP95. I've added a correct size Rink grip (which fits my hand beautifully!), and am overall very pleased with it.

However, I have this issue with the gun/grip... If I grip it comfortably(naturally)and lower it down to target level, the barrel is pointing distinctly upward. I need to consciously cock my wrist downward to allign the sights (or bring the dot into view in the tube). It definitely becomes uncomfortable after a period of time, feeling stress across my wrist.

Is this normal, and I can expect that my wrist will adapt? Or are some people just destined to use a more 1911-angle gun/grip?

Someone mentioned using high rings for my dot. As that will cause me to lower the gun, and I'll have to cock my wrist at a lesser angle.

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks!

I have no scientific support, but by my using (and studying) grips both 45 style and Euro bent style, I think that the all important wrist is more able to lock and lead in controlling the gun with the Euro style on 22 and small calibre guns. That is, without the need for a chicken choking squeeze on the handle. The Euros have developed that angle for some reason, and the Euros have been around since the invention of dirt. Not sure about when we have a high recoiling gun.

I believe there is a certain angle between hand and the wrist where the wrist will firm up with the least effort and best muscle balance.

That muscle balance, overall efficiency of your hold, and a good interface between you and the gun (traction?) might be just as important as sight alignment and trigger control.

Thanks for the input, guys. Much appreciated! Outside of the bit of discomfort, everything else feels right about shooting the raked grip. I can shoot the gun with an amazingly light grip (as you mentioned), and still get very good results. By habit I tend to try and grip it harder. Hmmm? Maybe that's given me the discomfort? I'll have to try a "light grip" session.

For now I'll stick to frequent/shorter practice sessions, and try to acclimate my wrist. My matches are only 30 shots, so no biggee there. Might even experiment with the higher rings, for the $20 investment.

I'm looking at the Pardini SP as a next gun, so I was really hoping to adjust to this. Looks like I'll probably be able to.

Thanks again!

MSC wrote:Thanks for the input, guys. Much appreciated! Outside of the bit of discomfort, everything else feels right about shooting the raked grip. I can shoot the gun with an amazingly light grip (as you mentioned), and still get very good results. By habit I tend to try and grip it harder. Hmmm? Maybe that's given me the discomfort? I'll have to try a "light grip" session.

For now I'll stick to frequent/shorter practice sessions, and try to acclimate my wrist. My matches are only 30 shots, so no biggee there. Might even experiment with the higher rings, for the $20 investment.

I'm looking at the Pardini SP as a next gun, so I was really hoping to adjust to this. Looks like I'll probably be able to.

Thanks again!

Hello,
Small changes in grip angle and balance can make a big difference in comfort. I have a model 41 when shot with a heavy barrel and red dot feels like I need to pry the barrel up to keep the gun on target. I can feel the muscles straining to keep the muzzle pointed up. The same gun with the lighter long barrel with iron sights (and correspondingly lower sight line) come up perfect, the difference is surprising.

I also shoot a Pardini SP with a dot and for me it's on the edge of acceptability. You may be able to find different grip angles with different grip mfg's however, since there's no frame to prevent an upright grip design.

I don't know about the Benelli, but the Pardini frame design looks like it would be very easy to shim a grip more upright with very little effort. One of these days I'm going to fool around with mine to see if I can't bring it up a few degrees.

Just my $0.02,
Steve.

JackH you are spot on. Yur'Yev has some discussion on this. The raked grip asssits in stability, as the angle "pre-loads" ligaments/tendons in the hand and wrist, and increases "bone-bone contact" [sic] as well.

Bottom line: the raked angle is more stable, due tot he physiology of hte human hand.

Great x-rays in Yru'Yev also! Shows bones "locked up" with high rake and "floating around" with north american grip angle.

Steve Swartz

Tread carefully with rake angles, you also need to be aware of recoil/power factor of the firearm.
The bigger the calibre (power factor) the less rake angle you can use. You cannot use a free pistol style grip/angle on a 357/45, you will cause wrist damage.
Some 44/45 revolvers are designed to roll in your hand to help control the felt recoil and not injure the shooter.

I think it is partly true that the cocked wrist angle is designed to lock the wrist tendons which results in less wrist movement at the joint, However I think the real reason for this design has been missed here......The exaggerated downward angle of the wrist places the barrel at a much lower position relative to the grip. This allows the recoil of the pistol to be transferred directed directly along the bones of the arm thereby lessening the upward muzzle jump of the pistol when fired. With the older steep vertical style of grip the barrel line is considerably higher relative to the forearm therefore the upward muzzle jump is more severe. In short, I think the design is intended to reduce muzzle jump. Because the reciol is transferred directly to the bones it can be physically damaging to the wrist joints in the larger calibres as David M points out.

I just finished altering the grip angle of my Pardini SP New RF by about 10º to make it more upright by backfilling the inlet portion of the grip. I'm working on getting pics up of the process in case someone else wants to try.

Just a quick follow-up on this....

The higher rings seemed to do nothing, at least for me. Tried high and std back to back. The dot was still well above, and out of view through the tube, with the high rings.

However, in reading a shot-process routine, I came across an interesting thing. With the gun at arms's length (prior to raising it to the target), the author twisted the gun 90degrees to the right, i.e. sights going from the 12:00 position to 3:00, then back. His reasoning was to set the elbow joint. In doing so, I found my wrist rolled nicely and cocked forward on the return to upright.

I tried it on one practice session, then in a match last night, and it seems to work quite well. Little if any discomfort. And I'm sure my wrist will get accustomed to that.

All I can gather is that the roll to the right re-alligns something to allow for a better drop of the wrist.

Regardless, I think I've found my solution.

By chance does anyone else practice this method?

A while back we had a thread on the various positions of the inside flat of the elbow (some pointed up, some pointed left, etc.) vs. stability and comfort.

IIRC many preferred a 45 degree angle for a variety of reasons.

Why this may be germane to teh current discussion is that obviously, the agle of the flat of the elbow will have an effect on the relationship between the radius/ulna and the wrist cradle . . .

Rich (Dr.) Kang- what are your thoughts on this?

Don't have my Yur'Yev handy . . . was this angle (relative position of elbow to hand) explored in his research?

Steve Swartz

(ps you can rotate the elbow directly/from the shoulder without rotating your hand)

A simple physiological fact is grip strength is related to wrist angle. You can not grip anything tightly with a dropped wrist. If you try you will hurt your elbow (tendonitis). I prefer a medium firm grip (a good handshake, that's all) and hence an upright grip angle. It hurts me more to shoot the Morini 162 AP than hardball unless of course I ease off.

I believe, and I have never seen it in print, that stability and hence group sizes are a U shaped saddle curve with grip pressure. Too loose has bigger groups, as does too tight. In the middle is the best group.

You need to find that point for any pistol and in my mind the raked grip makes it more complicated unless that too is adjustable.

best regards

I agree that the raked angle is better for most of us, but it sure is amazing to watch a top notch .45 shooter chew up the x-ring with one of those primitive, American-style unraked 1911's!

Bill

Raymac wrote:I think it is partly true that the cocked wrist angle is designed to lock the wrist tendons which results in less wrist movement at the joint, However I think the real reason for this design has been missed here......The exaggerated downward angle of the wrist places the barrel at a much lower position relative to the grip. This allows the recoil of the pistol to be transferred directed directly along the bones of the arm thereby lessening the upward muzzle jump of the pistol when fired. With the older steep vertical style of grip the barrel line is considerably higher relative to the forearm therefore the upward muzzle jump is more severe. In short, I think the design is intended to reduce muzzle jump. Because the reciol is transferred directly to the bones it can be physically damaging to the wrist joints in the larger calibres as David M points out.

100% on the money. Shoot the new pardini sp1 for the first time and you will feel the point. Personally at first it din not feel natural. Actually, i realised it did not feel "normal", because i was not used to it, but the group size spoke for it self. today I can imagine how people get the score they do with out it.

Julian

Euro rake angle = locked wrist. USA (ala 1911 angle) = unlocked wrist. Euro angle = recoil down bones in arm. USA angle = recoil makes gun pivot in hand meaning more recovery time.