TargetTalk

Hello I,m Hugo

I,m 17 years old and I come from The Netherlands

I shoot 10M Olympic pistol (Steyr lp10), and I have a major problem with my foot position with which I keep messing around, I can,t seem to find the ideal foot position. This kinda makes me insecure at training,s so I move from positions alot causing me to schoot 3 groups instead of 1.

Do you have any suggestions how I could train myself using a steady foot positon, and how it would be the best to find this ideal foot position.

Any tips are appreciated.

Thanks Alot.
Hugo


Ps. Sorry for my poor English, I,m still learning it.

Hugo,

It is very difficult to answerer this question, with out much further discussion.

My first question would be; why are do you feel the need to keep moving your feet or more simply; what happens when you dont ?

Are you adjusting your feet after each shot?

secondly are you a member of a club? do they support you, coach you?

regards

Julian
(in Amsterdam)

Hello Julian

I keep changing becaus I don,t feel comfortable with my position becaus I think it isn,t right, sometimes I find the perfect posistion and at that time I know it,s good. but as soon as I move I can,t seem to find it back.

I adjust my feet mostly after each card (10/20shots), when I go to get a new card.

Yes I,m member of a club but it,s a verry small club (15 members) of which only 7pistol shooters (only 4 active), our club president is a very good shooter, and she wathes us closely to give advice, She told me I would get a good foot position the more I keep training. Which is true but there must be a good way to find a good foot position and keep using it consistantly (which is my biggest problem).

Thanks alot

Hi Hugo

Foot position is not the most important aspect and may be distracting you from the main objective, which is that the pistol and body must point naturally towards the target.

I too had the same problem as you, worrying about correct position of my feet first, and yes it was frustrating until my fellow shooter (of many years) suggested I focus on the position of my body and naturally pointing the pistol at the target. If you forget about your feet, and line up with the pistol so it points naturally towards the target then a natural and supporting position can be found with your feet.

If it helps and you find a position that is both comfortable and supportive mark your toe position on the floor with some chalk. Be aware though that due to muscle tire, you will adjust your position and your feet will shift position as you progress through the shoot.
Hope this helps.
Best
Conrad
UK

hmmm, hugo, you dont'y need to care about your foot position. it does not need to always be in the same position. however, it will be good if you maintain your foot in the same position for your training session. get all the cards you need before starting your training.

alignment to the target is more important than foot position. foot position is rather insignificant, as there are other aspect to stance than position of your feet, such as balance, leaning of weight etc.

before shooting, point your finger at the target to guage your degree of alignment. if the alignment feels ok, it does not matter where you position your foot.

Start checking where your feet are when you are relaxed and .Just talking to a friend. Or any time your relaxed and standing. I think you will find that there is a consistant placement that your feet naturally assume That placement is where your boby finds it easiest to sustain an upright posture . I believe you will find that placement best for shooting as well. This placement of the feet provides the most relaxed stance and is usually the most stable. In any case , its probably the best place to start. Good Shooting Bill Horton [ don't ignore the sugestions in the posts above mine . They are all valid ]

Hugo,
Moving your feet isn't a problem, but you need to be able to find your natural point of aim each time you return to the firing line. And then keep your feet still through the next series of shots. To find your NPA, stand roughly where you think you should be to comfortably raise the gun onto the target. Raise into the aim as normal and close your eyes. Then lower and re-raise the gun three times (down to about 45 degrees) and then on the last raise stop where you think the target is (eyes still cosed). Now open your eyes and see where the gun is pointing - only be concerned with left or right. Whichever direction the gun is pointing shuffle your feet to swing yourself around if required. Repeat again until you are pretty much lined up in the middle of the card.

Every time you move off the firing line repeat the above. Obviously do this with a safe, unloaded gun when no one is forward of the firing line.

You may find initially this is quite hard to do and your position changes a lot but don't worry about that. It will however tighten up as you train and practice more.

Above all though just enjoy your shooting and training and don't worry about it, it all becomes easier with practice :)

Rob.

Hallo Hugo,

I am a rifle shooter and KNSA Basistrainer geweer/pistool.
Perhaps you can try start by using a shooters logbook. Have the logbook, pen and a ruler liyng in reach. Shoot a group of shots and the moment everything feels perfect (small groups, good technique etc.) stop shooting without changing your position. Take the ruler and logbook an make notes of things like:
angle of the body to the target
distance between the feet
angle of the feet compared to the target and to each other
how far the front of one foot is forward cpmpared to the other foot
There must be more things you can write down.
Make a sketch as well, it will be easier to read then a lot of numbers.This way you can repeat this shooting position every time you shoot.
Once you have found the perfect position stick some tape to the floor at home in front of a wall and at the precise position you must place your feet, just as you have noted in your logbook. You can use a T-shape, the top of the T is the position of the front of the foot, the vertical line of the T is the centerline and direction the foot is pointing.
Now you can practice your shooting position at home, getting the 'feel' of the various bodyparts. This will train the 'muscle memory'of your body. After a while you will recognise the correct feeling and you will be able to find the correct position of feet and body very quickly. Of course, this takes time and effort in training.

Of wich club are you a member? I shoot at SV De Vrijheid, Haarlem.
If you want more info you can email me at:
albert.thijsse@dhv.com

Groetjes,
Albert B
(The Netherlands)

From the American movie "Tin Cup" about a great golfer, a thinker and poet, but no dreams or desires. In this scene, he's teaching a new golfer, Molly, and trying to impart his thoughts and philosophy so she can understand what golf is really about. The same goes for shooting. By the way, I'd suggest you try out the other method give at the end of the scene for now, think about what you are really looking for and then you can go back to measuring and whatever.

TIN CUP
The first thing you gotta learn
about this game, Doc, is it ain't
about hitting a little white ball
into some yonder hole. It's about
inner demons and self-doubt and
human frailty and overcoming all
that crap. So... what kinda
doctor'd you say you were?
MOLLY
I'm a psychologist -- in layman's
terms call me a neo-Jungian, postmodern
Freudian, holistic
secularist.
TIN CUP
Damn.
She begins unpacking one of her bags, pulling out every
golf gimmick on the market -- swing aid straps to pull
your elbows together, a ball pendulum that hangs from
your hat, a metal contraption for your feet, etc.
MOLLY
Inner demons and human frailty are
my life's work. I used to
practice in El Paso but I've moved
here now...
TIN CUP
What're those?
MOLLY
I ordered these from the Golf
Channel.
6.
He stares in disbelief as she tries to wriggle into some
of this stuff. He's enchanted and dismayed.
TIN CUP
That stuff's a waste of money.
MOLLY
I'm sure there are excesses and
repetitions here, but I believe in
the gathering of knowledge and I
figured, well, there must be some
truths about the golf swing
illustrated by these devices --
and that you'd help me sort
through it.
She stands there with contraptions coming from every
limb.
MOLLY
I have dozens of golf videotapes,
too... And a golf watch.
TIN CUP
(irritated, impatient)
Take it off. All of it. Now!
You're a smart woman, for
Chrissakes -- don't you know the
work of charlatans when you see
it?
She deposits all the golf gimmick devices in a pile.
MOLLY
No. I can always tell when
someone is lying to himself, but
I'm quite susceptible and
frequently wrong when that person
lies to me.
(pointing to the
pile of devices)
That stuff cost me over 200
dollars --
TIN CUP
Then it's 200 dollars of shit...
He tees a ball, hands Molly her driver and steps back.
TIN CUP
Go ahead. Take a swing.
Molly takes a pitty-pat swing and whiffs, and mutters
under her breath with the ease of a longshoreman.
7.
MOLLY
Aw, fXXX...
TIN CUP
Well, you talk like a golfer --
Molly unloads a mighty second swing. The club head
bounces off the mat. The ball sits untouched.
MOLLY
Shit.
TIN CUP
'FXXX...' 'Shit...' these are
highly technical golf terms and
you're using them on your first
lesson -- this is promising.
MOLLY
Awright, wise ass, show me.
Tin Cup takes the club from Molly, motions for her to
step back, tees up a ball, and rockets a drive into the
night.
TIN CUP
Something like that.
He hands her back the club and tees up another ball.
Molly just looks at him.
MOLLY
Impressive. Y'know, I tend to
process things verbally. Can you
break down into words how you did
that?
Tin Cup takes a deep breath -- this is his speech.
TIN CUP
'What is the golf swing?' -- by
Roy McAvoy.
(beat)
The golf swing is a poem.
TIN CUP (CONT'D)
Sometimes a love sonnet and
sometimes a Homerian epic -- it is
organic and of a piece, yet it
breaks down into elegant stanzas
and quatrains. The critical
opening phrase of this song is the
grip, in which the hands unite to
form a single unit by the simple
overlap of the smallest finger...
(displays grip)
... held lightly, a conductor's
8.
baton.
(starts swing)
Lowly and slowly the clubhead is
pulled back, led into position
not by the hands but the body
which turns away from the target,
shifting to the right side without
shifting balance. Tempo is
everything, perfection unobtainable,
as the body coils, now to the top
of the swing, in profound equilibrium.
And then a slight hesitation, a nod
to the gods...
MOLLY
A nod to the gods?
TIN CUP
To the gods, yes... that he is
fallible. As the weight shifts
back to the left pulled now by
powers inside the earth -- it's
alive, this swing, a living
sculpture -- and down through
contact, always down, into terra
firma, striking the ball crisply
-- with character -- a tuning
fork goes off in your heart, your
balls -- such a pure feeling is
the well-struck golf shot -- And
then the follow through to finish,
always on line -- The reverse 'C'
of the Golden Bear, the steelworker's
power and brawn of Carl Sandburg's
Arnold Palmer, the da Vinci of
Hogan, the unfinished symphony of
Roy McAvoy.
MOLLY
What? What's unfinished?
TIN CUP
I have a short follow through --
my swing can look unfinished.
MOLLY
Why?
TIN CUP
Some say it's because that's the
best way to play through the winds
of West Texas... and some say it's
because I never finish anything.
You can decide. The point is every
finishing position is unique as if
that is the signature left to the
artist, the warrior athlete who,
finally and thereby, has asserted
his oneness with and power over the
universe by willing a golf ball to
go where he wants and how and when,
because that is what the golf swing
is about...
(finally)
It is about gaining control of
your life, and letting go at the
same time.
Molly stares back, exhausted and intrigued.
MOLLY
Jeez Louise...
TIN CUP
There is only one other acceptable
theory of how to hit a golf ball.
MOLLY
I'm afraid to ask. What's the
other theory?
TIN CUP
Grip it and rip it.

If I had a trainer like that I wouldn't last one session. A lot of philisophy and little straight advice. We have a saying in Holland (translated):
"Hollow barrels sound the loudest..." You grasp the meaning?
I have read better on this forum.

Hugo has trouble finding his position again after stepping away. The only way to get back in the same position is knowing what it looks like and how it is obtained. That can not be done by memory alone; but only by making notes and repeating the same position over and over again (muscle memory).
We have another saying in Holland: "Even a donkey on average doesn't hurt himself twice on the same stone...".

Try not. Do or do not. There is no try. (Yoda )

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

Thanks for missing the point and the insightful critique.

I have read better on this forum.

I think I'll step out for a while myself. Humm... I wonder where Ed Hall went....

The first thing you gotta learn
about this game, Doc, is it ain't
about hitting a little white ball
into some yonder hole. It's about
inner demons and self-doubt and
human frailty and overcoming all
that crap.

Cecil Rhodes

As previous posts describe, find your natural point of aim with the most comfortable, confidence inspiring foot position, then mark the floor with some small pieces of masking tape or chalk or whatever, right at the tip of your shoes. When you come back to the shooting position again, just put your toes right back on the marks on the floor. As you shoot, you will become tired and these marks may not be precisely where they need to be, but they will remain very close. Just use them as a guide. Adjust as necessary. As the previous posts say, your foot position doesn't have to be exact, but it helps me to mark the floor. Always remember to remove the marks when you are through with your shooting session, while you are putting away your equipment.

I am not an advocate of marking your foot position on the floor.

IMHO you need to be able to find the correct position reasonably quickly, so practice makes perfect. It is a learned skilll.

David-

I rarely (if ever) mark my position any more, but while I was learning I found it increased my confidence by reducing the "guesswork". Marks on the floor can be used as a guide, rather than a rule, and shorten the amount of time a shooter requires to establish NPA for each string (series). I don't understand what the problem is be with a beginner (or AA class even) marking their foot positions, and I do see an advantage. Could you elaborate a little on what the disadvantages might be? I'm always interested in learning more, but I retain new information better if I understand the "why", rather than just the "what". Thanks.

-Ricardo

twitchy wrote:Marks on the floor can be used as a guide, rather than a rule, and shorten the amount of time a shooter requires to establish NPA for each string (series).

Indeed they can be just used as a guide, but too often a new shooter will use them as if they are set in stone.

When I was a club instructor I did not suggest marking the floor, and the new shooters would not think of it themselves. After the first couple of sessions it was rare for foot position to be an issue. They were encouraged to set their basic position in relation to the direction to the target. After spending time ensuring they were taking a consistent grip they knew that there was no time pressure to then get the correct position.

That was probably an advantage of structured training courses, all of the new shooters were going through the basic learning process at the same time.

CR10XGuest wrote:Thanks for missing the point and the insightful critique.

I have read better on this forum.

I think I'll step out for a while myself. Humm... I wonder where Ed Hall went....

The first thing you gotta learn
about this game, Doc, is it ain't
about hitting a little white ball
into some yonder hole. It's about
inner demons and self-doubt and
human frailty and overcoming all
that crap.

This quote from "The Unfettered Mind" by T. Soho makes Cecil's point in a slightly different way:

If you do not train in technique, but only fill your breast with principle, your body and your hands will not function. Training in technique, if put into terms of your own martial art, is in the training that is practiced over and over again....
Even though you know the principle, you must make yourself perfectly free in the use of technique. And even though you may wield the sword that you carry with you well, if you are unclear on the deepest aspects of principle, you will likely fall short of proficiency.
Technique and principle are just like the the two wheels of a cart.

Nice to have you back Cecil.

Fred

Guys - Hugo is 17 years old and new to shooting. Some of the responses that have been posted are empty of suggestion and not particularly helpful or insightful. He wanted practical advice that would stop him focussing on his stance not whether or not 'smart' extracts from move scripts would find him enlightenment.

Hugo
Also on the marking with chalk; 'if it helps' - what this means Hugo is that it might 'help', not that you 'have' to do this - I started this way and it did 'help'.

After a while, like pointing naturally at the target, you will not need to know where your feet are as you will have built up balance memory for your stance. Next thing, your normal upright stance will not be quite right (previous advice) as you have an extended arm with about a Kg of weight on it - your gait, distance between feet will increase when you have a pistol extended, which will help minimise sway.

Hope this helps - let us know how you get on and good luck.

Best
Conrad
UK

Thank you. The point was, Hugo is 17, did not say he even had a single comfortable position, as a matter of fact he said he was still searching and had different groupings, no indication of the acceptability of each and did not have any other individualized comments or instructions.

So everybody starts measuring and marking and trying to reproduce something that was not comfortable in the first place.

Hugo: if you're not comfortable yet and still searching, all the chalk marks in the world may not help, then again it may. But I'd say at this point:

Grip it and rip it.

Then think about what you're feeling and seeing on the target.

You know more about yourself than anybody else.

Cecil Rhodes

Hugo
I suggest you forget about your feet for the moment.
I wrote this into another thread and now paste it here:

[paste]This from Bill Blankenship" (six time National Champion)
"Perfect sight alignment is necessary to get good scores, and having a natural alignment of the arm, hand and gun to the eye will keep the sights perfectly aligned."

Notice he says "to the eye". You can move your feet anywhere, anytime after you establish your sights to eye as an aligned "unit" including the wrist, arm, shoulder and head.

We are speaking of bullseye kicking 45s here. I am really not sure if the elite AP and FP shooter would say the same.[/paste]

Hugo, grip and raise your pistol time after time in a blank wall exercise. When your sights regularly come into alignment with your eye and are themselves aligned, then and only then do you introduce a specific target and shuffle your feet to it.

I never mark the floor. I concern myself with the sights first, target last.

Natural Position of aim should be Natural Position of Alignment. i.e. Sights.

CR10XGuest wrote:Humm... I wonder where Ed Hall went....

Crippling some demons... I actually finally made it back up over 2600 (first time this year). My first target was so bad I had to fire a 98 and a 100 on the next two to make up for it!

As to your post, I think it was great, but possibly not appreciated for its point within this thread.

Two passages from a couple books came to mind as I read the posts. I don't have the works directly in front of me, but one was Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach and the other was by Carlos Casteneda - I'm not sure of the title. I think it was the first in a series of books.

In the first book brought to mind, Jonathan explains the spiritual concept of flight to his new group of beginners, who can't make sense of it, and then he says, "All right, then, let's begin with level flight."

In the Casteneda book, his teacher instructs him to find a spiritual energy source in a vacant room. After testing all kinds of places thoughout the room and noticing no detectable differences, he gives up and sits down to rest. His teacher returns and says, "I see you found it!"

I think my own description at this part of my journey, as to what shooting, sports and life in general are really about, is how to deal with distractions. Do you address each distraction or do you leave the distraction by the path and travel toward your goal? And, how do you determine your true goal from all the distractions?

If foot position is on your mind, it will affect your shooting. But is it a distraction from your path, or the new fork you must take to reach your next milestone?

For each of us, the important exercise is to find the proper path through all the distractions. Can we do that without first knowing where we want to go?

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Things of Interest to Bullseye (and International) Competitors