TargetTalk

I am currently looking at buying the new CMP option - Air Arms S200. The shooter I would have use this gun is currently using a Daisy 888 and due to his size, he currently has 3 of the plastic inserts in the butt of the stock. Overall length measures a tiny bit over 40" or about 1016 MM. The Air Arms S200 is listed as 910 MM on their website, but there is nothing that details the trigger to buttplate length.

I sent an email to Champion's Choice and they have told me that there are no extension plates or adjustment screws for the overall length.

Also, if I am reading the details correctly it says that the cylinder is fixed in the gun and you get about 50-60 shots out of a full cylinder? Is this correct? Sounds like the shooters will have to re-fill regularly during an event.

Does anyone have any experience using this gun?

Many thanks for and and all help.

David

My opinions: (Did you mean a T200?)

1) The Air Arms >>T200<< is essentially still the CZ that Daisy imported with a fixed buttplate and no adjustable cheekpiece.

2) The S200 (with the adjustable cheekpiece) is not legal for 3PARC sporter. (Why .... I dunno, since the XSV-40 has one) I note that Champions Choice calls the sporter on their site an S200 ... I can see confusion coming at matches .... hmmmmm. If it has a fixed buttstock and a non-adjustable cheekpiece, you should be fine in a sporter match IMO.

4.2.1 Approved Rifles
Air Rifles officially approved for Sporter Class air rifle competitions are the Daisy M853/753/953/853CM (pneumatic), Daisy M888/887 (CO2), Crosman M2000 (CO2), Daisy XSV40 (compressed air) and the Air Arms T200 (compressed air) that has a non-adjustable cheekpiece and butt-plate. Any air rifle not included in this list that can comply with the requirements of these Rules must be submitted to the National Three-Position Air Rifle Council for approval before it may be added to the list of approved Sporter Air Rifles. Note: Air Arms S200 or T200 rifles with adjustable cheek-pieces or vertically adjustable butt-plates are not approved sporter air rifles.

underlining are the changes from the rulebook

3) If your shooter is using 3 buttplate extensions on the 888, I think a T200 is probably a) too small, and b) too light for him. I do like the XSV-40's I have, but use them exclusively for my smaller shooters.

In the spring, I take 2 rifles, mount scopes, and about 2lb weights on the muzzle and use them for Air Rifle silhouette.

4) I'm surprised there are no extensions with the T200. This is no big deal as the 3PARC rules state that you can add extensions to the buttplate

5) No way would I put a gun on the line that only fired 50-60 good shots ... in a 3x20 match you had better count on a shooter firing 80 shots minimum. (well, I guess not always, I have some less attentive kids that if they hit the black on a sighter, hey, they're good to go ... arrrrggghhhhh!) I think the guy probably didn'y know all the facts .... our XSV-40 cylinders can easily give us 120 good shots.

6) Final opinion .... get an 887 stock and 753 front sight from Daisy, get a real Gamo rear sight, and you probably have the best sporter gun available for that size of shooter.

If you want answers about the S200 go to http://www.topgunairguns.com/S200.htm and email or call the owner there he is the main dealer for Air Arm products in this country. He would have been the main distributor for the new combo rifles, but apparently Champions Choice made an offer that Air Arms couldn't refuse.

The T200 is not listed with Air Arms or Top Gun as one of their products.

The S200 is the no frills version of the XS40 and I was there at the Shot Show last year when USA Shooting had their discussion with Air Arms on what they would accept at their competitions and I believe they accepted the S200. You can ask Top Gun, but I believe the cylinder is removable like the other cylinders in that product line. It won't make sense cost wise for Air Arms to manufacture to manufacture a different product with a fixed cylinder when all they have to do is changed the stock. Besides there are no accessories like external filling hoses or adaptors offered for the rifle that I can see. They won't allow the new models of the XS40 at USA Shooting 3P national competitions, but they will allow the older versions that where first imported into the country.

jhmartin/randy1952,

Thanks much for the responses! jhmartin: I have been trading emails with champions choice about what they call a S200 and they assure me that it is not the version with the adjustable checkpiece/buttplate. I saw the reference to the T200 in the new rule book, but on their website they also have this:

"Only Daisy M853/753/953/888/887, Avanti XSV40, Crossman M2000 and Air Arms S200 (without adjustable cheek-piece or butt-plate) air rifles may be used in the sporter class. " Reference http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=14546

Sound like I could make it longer...but now I'm concerned about the weight. The Air Arms website describes this gun as "...primarily aimed at younger or more slightly built shooter...". This shooter is 17.

The number of shots is confusing. Their own website says 50-60 shots per 190bar fill...but CC told me 120?

This shooter is presently using a 888 that I have fitted with real gamo sites since the ones that came with it were junk. Maybe I should go with the 887...but most folks appear to be out of them and I'm wanting to get a new gun for him for x-mas (the 888 officially died on Saturday...argh).

Randy1952,

I was confused about the cylinder as well? Maybe I am mis-interpreting something. On http://www.air-arms.co.uk/S200.htm it reads "This model has a fixed cylinder re-filled via a quick release filling connector..." and shows a pic of the refill point.

Lots - and - lots of questions on these guns. The Air Arms MPR actually seems like a pretty gun, but we can only use this at NRA events...and we can't buy a different gun for NRA versus CMP (like at 4H events).

Again...many thanks,
David

What happed to the 888 that it died? Only problem I have had was the cylinders don't always want to seal and that is usually corrected with new O ring. I did have one that refused to seal no matter what when put in the rifle, but a new cylinder worked like new. Some parts are the same as the 853 and should be easy to obtain from Daisy.
Fred

Anything in the valving area of the 888 you really need to have Daisy look at it.

One thing to check is the safety blowoff plug just forward of the trigger guard (you'll have to remove the action from the stock). If you put a cylinder in that is too full sometimes this will pop out. You'll need to tap this back in.

RE: the 888 versus an 887.... all you have to do is order an 887 stock from Daisy .... if you shoot 4-H, Scouts, or somethng like that, call Denise Johnson
Daisy Outdoor Products
Special Markets/Customer Service
479-621-4317
djohnso@daisy.com

She will get you in touch with who you need to on the repair and the stock.

When you fill an 888 cylinder, you should always have a scale .... one of the 10lb postal scales from Walmart works fine .... set it to grams, and fill the cylinder so that the total weight is no more than 475 grams (Cyl & Gas). If you go to 480 or 485 & up you will most probably blow out that plug. It won't get lost as it's trapped in the stock under the action ... but watch for it as you take the action out of the stock.

Apparently, Air Arms has two different web pages for the S200. The web page that I looked at didn't have the filling information. The rifle shown on the web page is also different then the one that I saw at the Shot Show. That one did have a removable cylinder. I would talk to the Top Gun Dealer if you have any questions. He has been the main importer of Air Arms much longer then Champion's Choice. The other thing is that having a fixed cylinder maybe a pain to refill, but if the prices are cheaper then the alternatives then it maybe worth the price.

We had a neighboring club use the 888s and they had nothing but trouble with them. They got six new rifles and everyone of the seals in the cylinders failed. Four of them failed out right and two failed a couple of fills later and further more at the time Daisy had the worst attitude about servicing their products that I have run into. The only one that was comparable was Browning and the service lady in Utah gave me the same response. The one lady that I called at their service department attitude was that their products don't fail so don't bother us. I was kind of shocked with the tone of her conversation and have stayed away from Daisy products whenever possible. I think the main reason for their attitude is that they pretty much have the part of the market to themselves with no real competition. I spoke to their customer rep at the Shot Show for two years in a row and they said they would look into it and get back to me and I never heard a word. They must be hard on the people in that position because their was a new person in that job everytime I went back. However, this was all a few years ago and their attitude may have changed.

Crossman is one alternative the Challenger 2000. The rifle is short for Juniors and is acceptable for both NRA and USA Shooting Competitions. The rifle is adjustable for length and has an adjustable check piece. It is CO2 powered using the disposable CO2 cylinders. The one disadvantage to the rifle is that you can't take to many sighter shots during a match without having to change the CO2 cylinder. We have one at our store somewhere between $300 or $350 and maybe a little less if you catch the store owner in the right mood. You might also be able to find it cheaper on the web. You don't see to many of them out during the competitions.

The other alternative is to find somebody willing to sell an older XS40 that was imported before the new ones. Once in awhile you do see them out there.

are there more than one version of the S200?

It seems that I am getting some conflicting reports. It is my understanding that only S200s sold by Champion's Choice are 3P legal. I was called yesterday about doing warranty work on a some guns that were just sold through another source. We are only doing the warranty work for Daisy XSV40 guns and the CC S200 guns. Whether guns purchased from another source are legal for competition or not is not my area... But I would find out for sure before laying out money.

We're all entitled to our opinion and I hate to bash one product but I have used all three guns and have a very different opinion from the previous post. I find Randy1952's experience with Daisy to be surprising. I have had good success with Daisy and their products. And, I don't work for Daisy.

Our club has numerous 888's, 4 Crossman 2000's and a few XS40's. The 888's have proven to be accurate, reliable and relatively inexpensive. My experience with the Crossman has shown them to be not so accurate, unreliable and the disposable CO2 is expensive. We have completely stopped using the Crossman for these reasons. Every club leader around here that I've talked with about them has said they have had reliability problems. All stopped using them except one. I think he enjoys working on them.

The XS40 Valiant is a good gun. It seems to fit the smaller framed shooters better. My 9 year old is using one. However, I have not found them to be as accurate as the 888. They also are picky about what ammo you use. Air is easier to deal with than CO2 but it makes the action more compicated.

The 888 seems to be a good gun for the money. It will shoot well with just about any quality pellet - H&N, Vogel, RWS, etc. Out of the box the trigger will need some fine tuning. Refillable CO2 takes some getting used to but it's not bad. The action is simple and easy to clean when necessary.

The 888 stock is a bit small for your average teenage boy. I have purchased one 887 stock and really like it. It fits much better. Last I heard (Oct '06), the 853, 753, 888 and 887 weren't available from Daisy but the 887 stock is. I think the CMP may still have a supply of 888's

Just my $0.02.

Sam

It looks like their are at least two different versions of the S200. The one on the Champion's Choice website looks like the one that USA Shooting agreed to allow at their competitions when I was at the Shot Show early this year. It also has a removable cylinder according the "more info" that I clicked on for further information. The other S200 on the Air Arms sight doesn't have a removeable cylinder. The stock is also different then on the Air Arms website.

Scott .... yes there does appear to be more than one "version". It is only made worse in that the 3PARC rulebook states a T200 is legal and then states only S200's and T200's with no adjustable cheekpiece and vertical adjustments on the buttplate are legal. Me, if someone showed up to one of my matches with an S200 or T200 that conformed, I'd say OK, but caution them as I don't know what will happen at the Nationals.....

Randy ... I'll stick up for Daisy. Over the past three years I've ordered almost 20 888's from them, and the only trouble I've ever had with seals I'm pretty sure was my fault. YOU WILL BLOW THEM IF YOU OVERFILL THE CYLINDER. See my earlier post on the 475 gram absolute limit. The two guns I had to send back to have the valve seal replaced, were promptly repaired and returned within 2 weeks.

Here are some weights I use when I fill the 888/887 cylinders.
(Note that this is the Cylinder and CO2 gas weight)
The first rule of filling these cylinders is: USE A SCALE!

480+ grams - You're probably going to eventually blow a valve seal or pop out the overpressure plug if you fire this in the gun. Gun goes back to Daisy on the first, and carefully take the action out of the stock if the plug pops out to find it on the second.

475 grams - ABSOLUTE LIMIT ... I like to have the kids fire matches starting with cylinders filled to this weight
470 grams .... just as good as 475
465 grams - minimum I'll use to fire a 3x20 Match
450-465 grams - Just fine for a 3x20 practice
440-450 grams - This will get you thru a 3x10 practice
415 grams - I've still had kids shooting good shots here, but I consider this empty

405 grams - an empty cylinder

Crossman C2000 - love the stock, but you now have to center the buttplate. Here in NM at 5000-7000 feet above sea level you really have to change the cylinder out after every AR5/10 target you fire. Best I've (and my shooters) EVER been able to fire this in bench and prone is a good 7 ring ... MAYBE and 8 .... if they would put a bulk cylinder on it like the 888 and a decent barrel, who knows .... but at $300 or so, I'd still rather have the kids shooting an 888/887.

DAVID .... what is the height and weight of your 17 year old shooter?

Wow,

Lots of good responses...I'm impressed. CMJ...my comment about the 888 biting the bullet was in regards to an internal seal that I understand it a bit difficult to fix. Anytime you put any cylinder in the gun the air escapes from the end of the barrel. Overall, I have no complaints about the gun. He has shot with the gun for 3 years now with not many problems. It is just getting older and we thought we would buy him a new gun for x-mas rather than getting too involved with the fix (although we will likely do that as well - eventually).

JHMartin,

We are very carefull when charging our cylinders and very rarely blow a seal (which aren't that hard to fix anyway). We weight all cylinders with a digitial scale and only fill to a point.

My 17 year old shooter is about 6' or 6'1". He is fairly "long"...a bit tall and skinny...but the older I get the skinner everyone seems anyway ;-)

All,

Daisy products. Personally my family owns one 853 and 2 888s. Our club has about 15 888s. Some are good and some are "average". I replaced the sites on both of our 888s (as did some of the other shooters in our club) for "real" gamos as the ones they came with the guns were very poor. The only other real problem I have had is with the accessory rail. It actually striped out from the stock during a match. We had to drill out the holes, plug them with cylinder wood shafts, and re-drill them. Overall for the money, I'm not complaining. That said, the shooter is pretty advanced and I kinda would like to get the best gun I can for sporter if I can. Sounds like the Air Arms MPR is the best bet and I'm raising more questions than answers on the S200 (for example, I'm still trying to determine if a cylinder holds 60 shot like the Air Arms website claims or the 120 from CC). CC told me that the "air cylinder is removable by un-screwing it from the rifile"...which I'm assuming is the same as the deal with the 888.

Again, thanks all for the input...I check for it all the time. Also, this has been an invaluable website for me and kudos for pilkguns for having it.

lol...the short question is what gun is the "best" gun I can get that can actually be shot at BOTH 4H and NRA? I know it is a bit of a loaded question, but I value the input.

David

the short question is what gun is the "best" gun I can get that can actually be shot at BOTH 4H and NRA? I know it is a bit of a loaded question, but I value the input.

The MPR is out then. It is only legal in NRA competitions .... basically sectionals and the 4-H NRA postal. 4-H goes by 3PARC rules and the MPR is not legal. (I should qualify that in saying that the 4-H Nationals go by 3PARC rules ... what the states do is really up to them)

Again ... opinion, but you have the best gun now for that size of shooter ... just change out the stock

JHMartin,

I understood that the MPR is not legit for 4h...shame - also shame that 4H/CMP and NRA can't get together on this stuff. In any event...he currently shoots a 888, but there is an internal seal that is shot. It leaks air anytime a cylinder is put in it. Is this something that can be fixed without sending to to Daisy or something?

David

There is a pin that has to be extracted to fix the seal. I think for liability reasons Daisy has you ship the gun back to them. See a post of mine above for Denise's phone number and give her a call. Tell her what's up and she'll give you the name and address to send it to.

Hey, USAS and CMP can't even get together enough to get the sanctioning process down for 3PARC .... basically this is an organization without a sanctioning org right now.

There are 4-H clubs that have purchased MPR's and then found out that they are not legal for 4-H 3-Position. The first MPR's I saw were an Oregon 4-H team that the NRA Nationals this summer. You can convert an XSV-40 to be a 4-H silhouette gun, but the MPR, since it is not a 3PARC legal gun, it's out there too.

The only thing I'd add to previous posts is to maybe order an extra 753 front sight, take off the aperture and use it as an additional barrel weight ... a 6 foot shooter should be able to handle it. Just make sure you're under the 7.5 lb limit.

Joel

DavidE wrote:JHMartin,

I understood that the MPR is not legit for 4h...shame - also shame that 4H/CMP and NRA can't get together on this stuff. In any event...he currently shoots a 888, but there is an internal seal that is shot. It leaks air anytime a cylinder is put in it. Is this something that can be fixed without sending to to Daisy or something?

David

There is an Air Gun Committee that decides which guns are legal. The Committee is made up of a number of individuals from the shooting community, but I think it is a huge conflict of interest for Daisy to be on that committee.

Daisy supports the youth shooting programs in many ways, both in dollars to programs, give aways to clubs and hosting their own events. And they are one vote out of many. I see no problem or conflicts with that.

I agree with Scott ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the organizations hosting National level events where shooters may gain EIC points have a "seat" on the committee.

I don't have any idea of how much it costs these organizations to hold these National events, but it's not inexpensive I'll wager.

One of the oldest rules in the books ... if you fork out the $$ to put an event on, you should be able to have some input to the rules.

Look on the front cover of the rules and you'll find these organizations that help us all out:
Council members are The American Legion, BSAVenturing, Civilian Marksmanship Program, Daisy/U. S. Jaycees Shooter Education Program, National 4-H Shooting Sports, The U. S. Army Marksmanship Unit, USA Shooting and the Army, Marine Corps and Navy JROTC Commands.

The series designations and configurations used w/ the S200 can be a little confusing. Also certain retailers seem to take liberties when marketing these.

Basically you have a 7.5J match version (T), and a 16J sport version (B aka S). The match version (T) is the one w/ adjustable cheek and cylinder w/ gauge.

Both versions (T & B) have a removeable cylinder, but the sporter can be filled without removing it, via an intake at the tip.

To complicate matters, a previous generation of 16 joule rifles had an adjustable cheek as well. Some retailers have marketed these as S200T's. You can't get new B's w/ adjustable cheeks any longer.

If you're really interested in all of the permutations available, give Boris at TGAG a call. Also CZ's site has manuals and specifications - http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idp=4&ids=13&lang=en

HTH

Well, we ended up buying the S200 (without the adjustable checkpiece). Yes, the cylinder is removable - at least that question was answered. The down side is that the gun is much too small for the shooter. As I mentioned before, this shooter is about 6' tall and 17 and was using a Daisy 888 with 3 buttplate inserts (was even thinking about adding a 4th). The trigger to butt plate isn't that bad on this gun and I realize that I can add to the butt length - so I'm not very concerned here. However, this gun is really aimed at a smaller shooter and not one of this size. The gun is several inches shorter than the 888 (even without any buttplate extentions). We are going to try to get this gun returned and will likely try to pick up one of the new 887s if we can find one in stock.

David