TargetTalk

I am not a trainer, but a group of new shooters of my home town, ask me the average score obtained of a regular shooter in air pistol, compared with the time of practice (two or tree times a week).
From my own experience I make the next chart:

Satarting Shooters 450 points
after 6 months of training 500 points
after one year 540 points


I know the inability to establish a rule, also that there exist external factors as the quality of the training and to be provided with a good trainer.
I will be grateful if some member of this forum could reach port with his own experience, with the purpose of giving a good explanation to the young shooters.



Thank You,


Nano

From my personal experience and from what I have seen on the shooting club:

1st Warning: 2 hours (at least) 3 times a week, training much serious one, adult shooter.
Starting Shooters : score is not important.
After 6 months of training: >550 points.
After one year >565-570 points.

2nd Warning : 2 hours 2 times a week, training not so intensive, young shooter.
Starting Shootes: score not important.
After 6 months of training: >500 points.
After one year: >540 points.

Average training's score. Match score is another training..!

It's impossible to answer. It depends so much on the ability of the shooter and the effort they put into their training.

I have known shooters get to an average of 560 within 6 months of starting. I have also known shooters who, with the same effort, have trouble averaging 520.

I think that the foundation is to have fun and to strive for excellence in every shot. Then you learn to shoot good and as a bonus you obtain higher scores. Physical fitness and endurance, motivation, ability to concentrate and lots of other factors are important.

In my case I breached the 570 "barrier" within three months with a borrowed club pistol, with a grip that didn`t fit my hand, and I had big problems to focus the front sight, and shot 3 or 4 matches over 570 in that week.

Anonymous wrote:I think that the foundation is to have fun and to strive for excellence in every shot. Then you learn to shoot good and as a bonus you obtain higher scores. Physical fitness and endurance, motivation, ability to concentrate and lots of other factors are important.


That's a good way of looking at things ... for me , the right way ! I would also like to add that Physical fitness , endurance and concentration acquired during shooting training , actually "spill over" into other domains and activities for the shooter , an added bonus.

In my case I breached the 570 "barrier" within three months with a borrowed club pistol, with a grip that didn`t fit my hand, and I had big problems to focus the front sight, and shot 3 or 4 matches over 570 in that week.

Interesting to know that now , presumably , with the right pistol, a customized grip and prescription lens to aid in front sight clarity has moved you up from 570 to ??

Elmas

.

Thank´s for all the responses, all his contributions help enough. Anonymous made me very impressed.

A group of young people who are starting shooting, want to know the parameters to be compared and to see if they have qualities.
I understand perfectly that a teacher of shot, professional of teaching, would never give them parameters for which it is known that a consistent shooter, can improve to a different rhythm.

I think to give them a response of low scores, so that all of them they are considered with possibilities of success, but I must give a response.

Nano

A group of young people who are starting shooting, want to know the parameters to be compared and to see if they have qualities.
I understand perfectly that a teacher of shot, professional of teaching, would never give them parameters for which it is known that a consistent shooter, can improve to a different rhythm.

I think to give them a response of low scores, so that all of them they are considered with possibilities of success, but I must give a response.

If this is the case, then I would suggest the following response.

Most beginning scores are low. It's the nature of learning the sport or any sport for that matter.

However, if you had a single shot in the X, 10, 9, whatever, then you as a beginning shooter have already demonstrated that you are capable of producing a "good" shot.

With the proper training, thinking and belief in yourself, your improvement will only be limited by your desire and dedication.

Respectively submitted,

Cecil Rhodes.

Guest wrote:From my personal experience and from what I have seen on the shooting club:

1st Warning: 2 hours (at least) 3 times a week, training much serious one, adult shooter.
Starting Shooters : score is not important.
After 6 months of training: >550 points.
After one year >565-570 points.

2nd Warning : 2 hours 2 times a week, training not so intensive, young shooter.
Starting Shootes: score not important.
After 6 months of training: >500 points.
After one year: >540 points.

What hogwash. A 540 is A-level. A 570 is well into AA. If almost anyone could do this within a year if only they were willing to practice a few hours/week, they wouldn't call it A or AA.

Most shooters at most clubs will have trouble getting much past about 510 no matter how many years they put into it. There's a not-so-small matter of talent that comes into play.

I concur with Nicole.

At the UK national pistol Competition at Bisley this autumn (fall) there were three classes at 10m ISSF. The gold in C-class went to a 514, in B to a 550 and in A to a 573.

I would say that if you are shooting at the top of class C after a year you should be pretty pleased with yourself.

If you can shoot 570 after a year I am doing something terribly wrong.

1st AP season 553p
2nd AP season 573p. 1st FP season 537p
Now at the beginning of 3rd AP season 574p. I'm aiming at 580+ this season and it feels very reasonable and close. :-)

Axel wrote:I'm aiming at 580+ this season and it feels very reasonable and close. :-)

The Olympic record, set in Athens in 2004, is 591. Only 12 out of 47 Olympians scored 580 or above that year. Another 12 scored below 572 and 8 were below 570. The top US Olympian shot 579. The second best US performance was 571.

Just thought I might offer this perspective on your choice of the word, "reasonable."

Axel, congratulations on your progress. Your positive mental set will serve you well inaccomplishing your goals. Don't worry about what "others" have accomplished, as many (most?) of those have poorly set goals (ie achieving a certain score). You should believe in yourself, and set your goals as"a minimum of a certain score", thus leaving open the possibility of doing even better.

It was thought 600/600 in Air rifle was out of reach, but has been accomplished by those with the biggest dreams and non-stifiling goals.

You can soar with eagles if you can not let yourself be dragged down by the turkeys.

I don't know why you wrote that, but please try to be positive about other peoples achievements and goals. It will help your scores too, as strange it may seam...

I know what scores top level shooters are doing. The difference between shooting 580p and 590p in AP is much more than just 10 points - it's like a night and day difference.

btw, I don't live in the US.

Thank you Pat! :-)

Axel wrote:I don't know why you wrote that, but please try to be positive about other peoples achievements and goals.

Okay, since you asked (or didn't) I'll answer: This thread started with a question about how to set expectations for new shooters, which has quickly turned into some silly claims that anyone can score 540 or even 570 in the first year if only they put their minds to it and an excuse to brag "this is what I did."

Well, if someone can shoot 570 or 580 or whatever, I think that's just grand. That's better than half the shooters at the last Olympics. But it's absurd to post that as a realistic goal for new shooters. Let's call it what it is: It's boasting about your own ability and about how much better you are than anyone else, much less a new shooter. That's a wonderful score, but less than wonderful behavior.

And I really don't care where you live. I mentioned US scores only because this is where I live and to illustrate that even the very best shooters out of a whole country that most people have heard of have trouble breaking 580.

Nicole Hamilton wrote: Let's call it what it is: It's boasting about your own ability and about how much better you are than anyone else, much less a new shooter. That's a wonderful score, but less than wonderful behavior.

I did not mean to brag about anything and I don't care if you feel offended about my progress or goals. I train with people that has an positive attitude, we encourage high results and feel happy when someone is doing good. In that way we help each other to reach even higher results. Perhaps it's a bit far fetched to ask for that positive environment here on targettalk.

Cheers!

If you're pushing up against 580, you don't need my encouragement. If you don't already know that's world class and haven't found sufficient encouragement in shooting better than anyone else on the whole line, everywhere you go, I'm at a loss to guess just what else it is you need.

The folks who need encouragement are the ones shooting 480 -- or less! -- wondering if they'll ever get any good. And for them, the important thing is realistic goals they can actually attain and emphasis not on score but on developing basic skills and attitude that'll carry them through until they do get better. And even if they can't get better -- because not everyone can -- they need to know there's still room in this sport for them and that they can still enjoy and feel good about themselves.

I volunteer about a weekend/month as an NRA instructor. This is with rank beginners. My goal, like most of my fellow instructors', is that every student should learn the basic skills to be safe and that the experience should be sufficiently enjoyable and sufficiently successful that they can't wait to come back. So we have them shoot at blank targets and we don't score anything and we don't show off our own skills in front of them. Contrast that with a scene all-too-often repeated where someone will bring a friend to the range who's never shot, stick a .44magnum in their hand -- which of course they can't possibly handle -- then show off, see, here's how easy I do it. Do you think they ever come back?

I'm not saying you do that -- at a minimum, there's a world of difference between an AP and a .44magnum -- but the point is, if you're going to help a new shooter, it should not be about your ego, it should be about the student you're trying to help. And when you're telling me about shooting 580 in the context of setting goals for new shooters, I don't think that's what on your mind.

Nor do I think it's a problem that I just don't know how to encourage shooters with high asperations. I'm consistently in the middle of the pack in every event I shoot at my club. I'm a good shooter but I simply don't have the talent (and I started too late) to ever be the best, or even close, even in just that small pond. It's just the way life is. But I don't think you can find anyone I shoot with who'd tell you they've ever detected any sour grapes or snideness or anything less then genuine happiness for them when someone's shot really well or maybe reached a new PB, nor anything but support and compassion when they've failed to reach a goal I could see was important to them or when they've turned in a performance that made them feel bad. I think they know I'm proud just to be able to shoot alongside them.

I'm not in the least offended or threatened by your progress or goals. I just don't think they're appropriate goals for a new shooter.

Axel wrote:1st AP season 553p
2nd AP season 573p. 1st FP season 537p
Now at the beginning of 3rd AP season 574p. I'm aiming at 580+ this season and it feels very reasonable and close. :-)

Axel,

I'm assuming that your AP 553 was a personal best after a full year of shooting. Did you do any kind of shooting before??? Just curious.

To increase to a PB of 573 within your second year is incredible (by MY standards). Please let me know what you are doing... I need to try it myself!!!

Me.. I've been shooting AP for the last year. My first match score (ap) was 449 (about a month after picking up my first real AP). Since then I've managed to increase my average to about 520 (after a year of shooting). I shot similar scores at Ontario provincials, and Canadian Nationals.

That progress... 449 to 520 was with one night of practise per week, and a couple hours of dry fire at home. Not much... just wondering how that compares to your training.

Age is probably another factor... the eyes and hold aren't as good at my current age, as they were when I shot rifle at 16. 24 years later things are a little harder to control :-)

All that aside.. My goal is to shoot the best I can... The current wisdom is that it takes 6-8 years to train an Olympic class athelete. Seems you (and some other folks here) are on the fast track.

Another question.. (Probably stupid.. .) I know this is an Olympic Pistol forum... but are we SURE that everyone is using ISSF targets when they are talking about these scores??? You should see my scores on some of the recreational sport targets ;-)

Cheers,

David

To shoot AP good, the shooter must have steady hands and good eyes.
Steady hands are, in part, a skill that can be learned through practice.
Good eyes need the right corrective lenses for some people, but are also in part a skill to use what you see, as much as seeing well. You have to know what to look for, which again can be learned through practice.
Sorry, I don't know any way to determine how high you can get, except to try it and see. You will have fun getting there in any event!

My best so far was a year of all matches 560+. Good enough for some state championships, but nothing at the national or international level. This was after about 3 years of practice as an adult with a little semi-formal rifle shooting long ago. Practice at that point was an average of 10-20 minutes a session, one or sometimes two sessions most days. In any skill (shooting, tennis, whatever), I think you need at least 3 sessions a week to improve, 2 sessions to maintain reasonable skill. The number of sessions and the quality of practice are more important than total time. I am writing about real physical practice with the gun, however it does not need to be live fire, dry fire is just about the same when done right, and you can (should?) practice individual aspects of the shot as well. Mental practice can supplement or even be your primary amount of time spent. You also need one or two days off per week to not think about shooting at all. Those who have achieved national level wins, in addition to possibly more natural ability, spent more time practicing than I did. I think short practice sessions daily is an efficient way to use practice time; a long session might be better, but not nearly as much better as the increased time. The number of sessions is first importance, and after that increasing time can add to your level.

I think all good shooters are smart, at least to some extent. You need to be able to analyze what you are doing and decide exactly what to do better. Get advice from everyone, but then you need to select which advice will be the most helpful for you.

Nicole, I like the tone of your last post better than the previous ones. :-) I agree with you regarding the importance of encouraging absolute beginners. But hey, what kind of beginner would think that they could just pick up a gun and starting to shoot just tens...There is more to it than that as we all know. If someone can't stand seeing other people shooting good, or get offended by high results from others, perhaps competitive shooting just isn't their thing in life. Some sort of encouragement is needed on all levels, especially at the middle and top - again, positive environment.

You put it like I have got to my level so fast by just pure talent(?) You have no clue about how much time and effort I'm spending training. Sure, talent is part of it, but far from the most important factor. Hard work is what it takes to reach the top. I do it because I love the challenge of my sport, and I'm having lots of fun too.

Lets not get to focused on numbers. Everyone is competing against their selves - towards their own goals and at their own level. Remember to have fun while doing it!


Here is my approach:

- have fun. the most important factor. when you are happy you will perform well.
- talk with expert shooters, ask for advice. train together with them
- focus on positive things. put focus on doing things right instead of analyzing errors. errors will vanish naturally when doing things in the right way
- keep it simple. do not complicate it, shooting is easy, always strive for simplicity
- focus on parts you need to improve. break problem areas into smaller parts and start to work from there
- work hard

Now I'm sounding like a shooting expert that has all the right answers. I'm humble enough to realize that I don't. I still see myself as a beginner.