TargetTalk

What is the best way to determine the triggers first and second stages weights.

I use a Correx guage. Apply pressure with it until the trigger stops moving. That is the first stage weight. Apply more pressure until the trigger breaks. That is the total weight.

This is repeatable to within about 10 grammes.

Another method that's perhaps more accessible is to place the 500gram trigger weight on a weigh scale, then lift the weight with the pistol. As the pistol moves upward you will be able to feel the point where 1st stage travel ends. Note this value and subtract it from 500 grams to get the 1st stage weight. Works reasonably well, but definitely not accurate to within 10 grams - but 25grams is achievable if you haven't had any coffee to drink that day!

Mark Briggs wrote:......................but 25grams is achievable if you haven't had any coffee to drink that day!

Which is probably more than accurate enough for most purposes. I just happened to pick up an unused 1000g Correx on ebay for peanuts.

If you want to know whether you conform to the rules for a match, you should use a weight set and take care that you're using it properly. (I got my head handed to me about a month ago when I suggested using anything but a weight set for this type of measurement! :) Generally speaking, there are no restrictions on first stage pull, only second stage (or total pull) and measurements are done with the barrel vertical. If you're not confident you're doing it exactly right, find someone to teach you.

The set I ended up buying was the NRA Universal Trigger Weight System, stock number 678-650-000 for $109.30 from Brownell's. This is the set Larry Carter at Larry's Guns recommended to me as the one he uses and the only one he knows of that does both grams (international) and lbs (NRA).

If you're simply wanting to measure your trigger pulls for first and second stage, you need a gauge or a scale, since a weight set can only tell you if you are under or over that particular weight. A max-reading gauge does it directly: You pull against the trigger with the gauge 'till it goes click and the gauge records the maximum. If you only have something like a postage scale, what you can do is hang a cup on a string from the trigger, then add lead shot or water until the trigger clicks, then you weight the cup. With either technique, you'll want to measure several times because you will get some variation from one trial to the next.

If you'd like to get a max-reading gauge, there are some inexpensive trigger pull scales (e.g., one by RCBS) but they're not very precise and intended only for measuring heavy pulls. For the very light pulls on a free pistol (50g or even less), air pistol (500g), standard pistol (1Kg) or NRA BE (2 lbs), the best gauges I could find are Correx brand made by Haag-Streit in Bern, Switzerland and Halda brand made by Haldex AB in Sweden. Both brands of gauges are made in various ranges, e.g., 0-50g, 0-100g, 0-250g, 0-1Kg, etc., and are intended for precision laboratory and industrial applications. They come with either flat or ball tip; either works, but I think ball tip is a better choice for measuring a trigger. New, they're pretty expensive, about $180 each. But they come up for sale all the time on eBay for around $30 to $40 each.

Here's a picture of some gauges I just bought on eBay. (I bought a few more, but they haven't arrived yet. :) The small one is about 3.5" tall, the big ones are 6" tall. The one in the middle happened to come with a hook attached by screws to it; I'll probably remove it.

For final checking that a trigger will pass at a comp, I think its best to use a hanging weight (with additional small weights to test for actual letoff weight) as this is the test it has to pass on the line. As previously stated, the barrel MUST be vertical.
Those Correx sure look like nice tools though, just the thing for setting up both stages.

thank you all for the information. It was great help

I was Just thinking. To measure the second stage spring grams you could remove the first stage spring, and adjust/ measure for the second stage weight desired by the second stage screw. Then remount the first stage spring and adjust the first stage screw for the total weight for the trigger pull weight desired as long as it is over 500gr. What do you think about this method?

Guest wrote:What do you think about this method?

Sure wouldn't be my first thought! I guess no one's ever said to you, if it ain't broke, don't fix it? :)

it is nice to have a good trigger setup, but it really does not make you squeeze the trigger any better. just put weight on the first stage and then the second and see what feels good. then check to see if it is of legal weight.

people get too worked up about setting a trigger at a specific weight as if it is going to help. establish a solid technique before fiddling with your trigger. you can still jerk a "well set up trigger".

i also would not consider messing with the trigger like this until you can shoot at 560+. any score less than that is evidence you still need some trigger technique...

Mike Douglass

I try to keep mine a bit over minimums. I hate to get my technique calibrated to a really good trigger weight and then have to "crank it up" on equipment registration day . . .

Steve Swartz

The "NRA Universal Trigger Weight Set" is not legal for use in international competition as it uses a roller. The ISSF rules specifically call for a knife edge. Check your rulebook and the diagrams for weighing a trigger.

What difference does it make? I can not say, but the rule is what it is.

I have a question of what weight would be a good place to start. I Know it is a personal feeling. I wonder where most of the good shooters have that feeling for their second stage weight. My guess is about 80-100 grams. I know morini sets the second stage at 250grams from the factory. Steve I was wondering about my Idea of taking off the spring to measure the second stage weight. What do yo think?

PETE S wrote:The "NRA Universal Trigger Weight Set" is not legal for use in international competition as it uses a roller. The ISSF rules specifically call for a knife edge. Check your rulebook and the diagrams for weighing a trigger.
What difference does it make? I can not say, but the rule is what it is.

The knife edge is able to be used on a greater number of trigger shapes and angles than a roller.

Having said that, as you know that the weight will have an edge, if you present a pistol with a weirdly shaped trigger that will not work with a knife edge you will fail. That's why it is a good idea to put a shallow saw/file groove across the trigger at the point where the weight should be suspended.

Greg:

Interesting idea on the "measure spring setting independently" concept. Just my $0.02 here on it.

First, I firmly believe to the greatest degree possible (agreeing with Mike) that you should "Set It and Forget It!"

However, in the "Set It" dfepartment (which you must do at least one time before "Forgetting It):

Not for sure but there may be a danger of first stage spring stretching (?) when removing and reinstalling . . . in my experience with mechanical stuff you always run some risk when R2'ing any component. Hey, if nothing else, we all know how springs wait for those moments of rapt inattention to choose to make their escape!

(side note: I knew a gunsmith once who made it a practice to perform any spring disassembly inside a clear plastic bag).

While damage to the spring may not be an issue, it's always (with the Morini systems) a good idea to have some spares in the proper force range handy. When adjusting the second stage spring, I have known people (a Bullseye shooter) who have "overstretched" their spring with the adjustment screw and had a heck of a time maintaining a good setting when he tried to go back down to grams from pounds later.

Anyhow

If I were going to follow your recommendation, I might start with two good springs in the proper range. Remove both old springs, install the second stage first and perform initial adjustment (below where you figure your final adjustment will be). Then install first stage and set it to your desired point, followed by final tweaking of second stage? Then just test ocassionaly and when tweaking, tweak both springs by the same amount in the same direction. THis should give you very consistent "feel" over time?

Greg,
I doubt very much if anyone could tell the difference between, for instance a 340gm and 360gm first stage.
If you havent got access to any of the other tools mentioned, hang a known weight that you want to start with, say 350 gm (water in a plastic bottle will do) off the trigger rigged so as to not touch the frame/grip.
Adjust the first stage spring untill the trigger just takes up that stage and no more.
Then get your 520 (+ or -) with the second stage.
Try that and work from there with the same method.

thank you very much for the insight. I like the spare spring idea.

I would urge caution with the electronic trigger weight testers. I have seen two examples (RCBS and Lyman) and both were a stunning disappointment and pleased I did not pay for these myself!

Just picked up on Ebay a 100g, 500g and 2000g Correx testers for FP, AP and CF pistol for equivalent $100. These are well sorted pieces of kit and have used others for a long time. I would suggest a mini test rig so that you apply the tester from the same angle between tests. This should be 90 degrees to the trigger and a smooth rotation so that you can repeat between tests for consistent measurement so that backup or replacements can be setup the same as the match unit or returned after training tests. We have the ISSF approved weight testers for the total weight but these don’t address the first stage pull or FP weights!

PaulT wrote:I would urge caution with the electronic trigger weight testers. I have seen two examples (RCBS and Lyman) and both were a stunning disappointment and pleased I did not pay for these myself!

Just picked up on Ebay a 100g, 500g and 2000g Correx testers for FP, AP and CF pistol for equivalent $100. These are well sorted pieces of kit and have used others for a long time. I would suggest a mini test rig so that you apply the tester from the same angle between tests. This should be 90 degrees to the trigger and a smooth rotation so that you can repeat between tests for consistent measurement so that backup or replacements can be setup the same as the match unit or returned after training tests. We have the ISSF approved weight testers for the total weight but these don’t address the first stage pull or FP weights!

I have a Lyman and it works fine, but then again I'm not worried about a few grams here or there. It gets me in the ball park, then I use a fixed wieght to test if it legal and forget about it. This infinte fiddling with triggers is a big waste of time.

Just out of interest, and with absolutely no intention of fiddling with it, I just checked my 162EI with a Correx.

440g first stage, 520g total

I'm quite happy with that because that's exactly what I set it to after its last service 18 months ago.