TargetTalk

I've started shooting for a couple of months now. I'm close to breaking 500.

But I still have to think, squeeze trigger, almost every time i shoot. once in awhile I get a few that just go off and get a 9or10

What kind of exercises help develop my "subconsious trigger"?

Short answer
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Align the sights, accept your hold, apply positive pressure straight to the rear.

Repeat above 10,000 times as consistently as possible with immediate feedback; preferably feedback that includes shot process point tracing before, during and after the shot break.

Over time your subconscious timing/"lead the target" computer will be programmed.


Long answer
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Well, it's "simple" but also "subtle" which frequently makes it "difficult!"

Think it through- assuming that you embrace the concept that the "perfect shot process" involves the execution of the following steps:

Align the sights
Settle into aiming area
Keep the sights aligned
While maintaining sight alignment, give permission for subconscious to apply sear-breaking pressure to the trigger

then the issue is this- how do I "train" or "program" my subconscious to anticipate the release of the shot/increase pressure on the trigger in such a way as to time the skirt clearing the muzzle at the perfect instant so that the pellet ends up cutting the ten ring?

(note that your subconscious has to send the "now!" signal some number of millliseconds before the bore is pointed inside the ten ring; you need to "lead the target" just like a shotgun shooter.)

first, you have to keep everything about the shot process absolutely consistent . . . if the "lead time required" is 25 ms, then 15 ms, then 100 ms your computer will *never* be programmed. So you have to absolutely keep everything conscious about your shot program as consistent as possible.

If you were able to do that, through hit and miss, you could program your computer after several hundred repetitions once you figured it out.

Since you can't do that, it will take many more repetitions.

If you can see after each shot what was going on before, during, and after the shot this will speed up the process.

Steve Swartz

What this poor guy know about...."perfect shot process"???? If he not able to shoot 500?
Subconscious knowledge on this level will stop him from progress for years!!!!!
Sincerely Russ

Russ wrote:What this poor guy know about...."perfect shot process"???? If he not able to shoot 500?
Subconscious knowledge on this level will stop him from progress for years!!!!!
Sincerely Russ

Must disagree!
From James' question; at close to 500 he is putting most shots in the black, and is already aware that subconscious release in his 'trigger control' is a needed component (gives him 9s and 10s).
Far better to get good technique as soon as possible, rather than have to undo years of bad technique,

I would add to Steve's response the need for follow through.
Getting a shooter to continue the triggering process after the shot gets lots of favourable outcome.

Spencer C

James-I am not an expert but here is what I have observed.A SURPRISE shot will probably score higher than a poor release while you are waiting for it to consciously go off.Hear me out-Once my sight picture is getting close to a good alignment,I start a commited,constant, UNENDING pull(pressure) on the trigger until it goes off.Maybe the sights will be perfect, maybe not-but it probably will be within your hold area,and it probably will be a decent shot.AND it will be a surprise shot.As you get better,and develope a constant pressure,as a habit,your hold area will be smaller and your sight alignment will occur quicker and closer to perfect as possible.But I think the surprise shot is better than the alternative-which is a hesitancy on the trigger based on what the alignment looks like.This sounds pretty much what Steve is saying-except I am probably saying it in a different way.I also think dry firing is extremely helpful for what you are trying to achieve.Kind Regards Ernie.

I've noticed the same thing about surprise shots being pretty good. Why is that. The mind not getting in the way?

Subconscious shots should not be a suprise since your subconscious made it happen. It should however not be a conscious action (I guess that's obvious <g> ). If it is a suprise I would suspect you weren't sufficiently tuned in to the trigger pressure required to make the shot break. I think the solution is however the same i.e. practice and practice more. My shot release is probably on average only 20-30% subconsciously performed and that is one of my priorities in my personal shooting development.

Rob.

I'm not sure that "subconscious" is the right term. Certainly not for me. My process looks more like:

1. Take up trigger slack (if applicable)
2. Coarse alignment of sights
3. Coarse placement of sights on target
4. Medium alignment of sights on target
5. Turn on 'trigger sequencer' - start applying pressure. The increase DOES have to be below the conscious level.
6. Fine shot steering. At some point in this process, the trigger sequencer will fire the round
7. Follow-through.

What you will find is that sometimes, your conscious memory of the sight picture will be off a bit - you would swear that the sights were in the 9 ring, but you shot a 10. I'm told that what is happening is that the subconscious is doing last-millisecond shot steering.

I love hearing what different shooters are doing to facilitate the process. But, I feel confident that the conscious part of shooting is the training that produces perfect shots......to ingrain that muscle/mental process to the level of near automatic consistency and recognize when "all the elements" aren't right. Firs step seems critical to me. Learn what the elements are and how to perform them correctly. The second step is learning how to evaluate one's efforts to actually do them correctly. The third step......do them correctly for long enough period of time to have them be the only process. All of these steps are conscious, concerted and dedicated efforts. When these things start being more automatic, then the only residual thing that will require some part of conscious attention during the "single-shot match" is to assure the proper sight alignment. At least, this is the way I am training at this point. Results will come with diligence and attention to the basics. CraigE

I believe the route to the subconscious is through the conscious.

Train on trigger consciously while keeping hold and eye on sight subdued in the mind. Also at other training sessions train for the hold, or eye discipline by themselves. Purse you lips or squint your eye to help channel your training thoughts to the subject at hand. Actually this is more an exercise in channeling.

Keep in mind this is training, a learning process. Scores mean nothing. The only thing on the target you seek is group improvement. Channeling your mind to that is also training.

James wrote:I've started shooting for a couple of months now. I'm close to breaking 500.

But I still have to think, squeeze trigger, almost every time i shoot. once in awhile I get a few that just go off and get a 9or10

What kind of exercises help develop my "subconsious trigger"?

James,

You are trying to construct the 98th floor of a skyscraper that hasn't even broken ground yet! I know there are a few shooters that disagree with me on this subject. First, you need to build the base of your position. The refinement of your position (which includes your arm and hand) in unision with your entire body will give you a decent hold for which you can begin to apply towards your trigger technique. Russ touched on this (in this thread) but in an indirect way - you have to master the position fundamentals first before even thinking about proceeding further.

I guarantee that if you train your position and hold, you will jump from low 500's to mid 550's in very short order. You will actually begin to see your front sight settling naturally into place where you can apply good trigger technique.

Second, set aside the conscious vs. subconscious for now - it is honestly way too far in the future for you at this point (solve the mechanical problems first- then move on to additional items). Master the position and the hold! And that can ONLY be done with many, many hours of intense training throughout the week - week after week. Train with your pistol by raising it above the target, focus on the front sight, lower it slowly keeping the sights aligned as tightly as possible and let it settle where you prefer on the bull. Notice I did not say 'then let the shot off' because this what you do not want to do at this point. You need to master the stance and hold in order to commence with trigger technique.

This is quite simple actually as long as you keep the process in perspective (and in order). I would be happy to converse with you via e-mail if you like - just drop me a line. I'll reply back to you when I have completed my training session tonight.

Matt

As one of the other posters said the route into the subconscious is the conscious. The 'trick' is to both train the subconscious (via the conscious) and to free it such that it can do it's stuff. I have just shot tonight and what works for me is a pretty intense focus on the foresight during the last few seconds of shot release. Your mind can only do one thing at a time so make that the foresight and the rest pretty much has to be unconscious - or you mind has wandered off ;)

Rob.

Here's a thought (perhaps I was way too subtle the first time):

Figure out what your process outcome needs to be before youstart working on "process improvement."

In other words, if you don't know awhat a perfect shot process should be, any road will get you there.

Once again, I must respectfully disagree with Matt (and probably a whole lot more of you as well).

Your training program should be developed around the fundamentals- but how?

Saying "Good Stance" as a training objective is all well and good . . . but if you don't understand how to define "Good" (or worse yet, define it improperly) you will be burning in some bad habits in technique that will take a long time to recover from.

And, perhaps more importantly- why do we assume someone with flawed physical technique won't benefit from good subconscious shot release?

You can work for years on "refining physical technique" but if you are consciously managing (attempting to manage) shot release during this time are you not developing a *really* bad habit in one are that is *really* important?

Proposition (apologies to R. Crum):

"Times of good shot process will get you through bad physical technique a whole lot better than times of good physical technique will get you through bad shot process."

Waiting for Ed to chime in (and not just becasue I think he will recognize the modified quote =8^)


Steve

I rest my case.

Thanks everyone for your opinions/advice.

I still dont have a perfect shot process down, but I think i have a decent idea of what I should be looking for.

I'm able to shoot 10's and know that I shot a 10, but refining and duplicating this process i am working on. (before i only knew how to hold the black)

I'm having to balance, sight alignment, trigger pull, sight picture, hold time, mentally pulling the shot, and timing it inbetween shakes.

I have a coach that is working me though it, and he's slowly introducing new subjects, but he never mentioned anything about subconcious trigger control or any of that yet. So I was curious as to what and how it is done.

I figure removing one of the things to balance would help.

In practice, if i'm on a good day, sometimes im able to pile 4 out of 5 shots on the 10 or atleast in the 9. Keeping focus and not releasing when the pistol alignment is off is difficult, especially during a match.

Its just recently that i've gotten the basics down (a couple of days before the match) to where i knew what to look for in each shot.

Another match next month. I think its best to stick with my coach's plan, and practice the fundamentals before introducing any radical techinques.

I hope to get the 500 score next match to qualify for nationals this spring.

James wrote: I have a coach that is working me though it, and he's slowly introducing new subjects, but he never mentioned anything about subconcious trigger control or any of that yet. So I was curious as to what and how it is done.

...Another match next month. I think its best to stick with my coach's plan, and practice the fundamentals before introducing any radical techinques.

I hope to get the 500 score next match to qualify for nationals this spring.

Now for the heresy,

Forget the theory, forget about reading up on shooting technique. etc.; if you have got a coach
STICK WITH THE COACH!!!
LISTEN TO THE COACH!!!
DO WHAT THE COACH TELLS YOU!!!

Do these things and when (if?) you reach the stage where the coach cannot go any further with you he/she will probably pass you on up to a different coach

Good shooting,
Spencer C

Just a thought here for you to try on for size. You'll hear a lot of shooters talk about a "subconcious trigger" like it was the holy grail of shooting. Look, you do need to align the sights and press the trigger with disturbing the sights but thinking that there's got to be somthing inside your briain that makes it work if you can just do that one thing just might take you on a detour.

People tend to place a lot of emphasis (technical, mystical or otherwise) on the term "subsconcious". Don't worry about it. What I am trying to do is create a condition wherein my mind (and I don't really care which part) processes the incoming information to allow me to consistently perform an acceptable shot.

I'm not one of Pavlov's dogs, drooling at the sound of a bell, I am trying to be the master of my response; monitoring, assessing input, allowing it to proceed unless "I" determine that it needs to be changed (read restarted, not aborted which has too many negative connotations for me).

So, as you can see I'm not a real proponent of the "subconscious release"; it will happen automatically if I train the right way and my mind works correctly crowd. I do think that you can develop an awareness of the process and input (what you see, feel, etc.) that will significantly reduce the attention needed to press the trigger, but to call it subsconcious (at least in my simple mind) might be a bit too far.

I haven't really been convinced either way yet.

I have discussed this with quite a few people and get various responses, but they tend to fall into three groups.

Group 1 puts the most emphasis on sight alignment and lesser "monitoring" on the trigger press. These people tend to think of it as "subconscious trigger" but if they are aware of it at all, is it really subsconcious?.

Group 2 does the same thing, only in reverse with less "active" monitoring required on sight alignment, and thinking press, press press to activate the shot process. But by distracting themselves with this thought, are they substituting input or is it a subsconcious response as well?

Group 3? Well, they just see what's going on and respond appropriately to all the inputs and keep putting shot after shot in the center. They didn't really mention subsconcious at all.

Just some ideas to stimulate some conversation.

Cecil Rhodes

Call it subconcious or whatever but for what i have observed, the key to a good result (and especially in competition, where it counts!) is 95% mental exercise. Not only in my case but for almost everyone i know and observe here the follwoing is true:
1. we have had the physical ability to shoot the results we want to shoot for a while; its 90+% of what it would take to be a perfect shooter imho.
2. in training, we are able to produce the desired results
3. in competition, the results are off by up to 15% reproducably.

Bottom line:
to achieve the results we want to in competition, we need to understand the mind thing that goes on once someone actually COUNTS our results. This will help a whole lot more than fiddling on stance, trigger release or any other fine tuning aspect. This is something Steve, and most other posters here need to understand.

Why does Steve keep repeating his mantra? Simple: it helped him and he believes in it. But the point he misses imho is that the problems he solved with his method, are the problems of a pro class shooter on international level and not the problem of the average guy who would be happy with a result of steves after subtracting 30 rings. I love to read your stuff steve but as of today it didnt help me in competition a bit, because my problem is not how to tune the last few 9's into tens, but rather how to avoid the fatal twitch of the wrist that happens twice or thrice over one competiton and results in a 2 or 3. And i know its only a mental thing since it NEVER happens in training conditions.

Can anyone tell me how to bring my mind to a halt for 1 h 15 min? Would be really grateful...

[quote="CR10X(......

Group 1 puts the most emphasis on sight alignment and lesser "monitoring" on the trigger press. These people tend to think of it as "subconscious trigger" but if they are aware of it at all, is it really subsconcious?.

Group 2 does the same thing, only in reverse with less "active" monitoring required on sight alignment, and thinking press, press press to activate the shot process. But by distracting themselves with this thought, are they substituting input or is it a subsconcious response as well?

Group 3? Well, they just see what's going on and respond appropriately to all the inputs and keep putting shot after shot in the center. They didn't really mention subsconcious at all.

Just some ideas to stimulate some conversation.

Cecil Rhodes[/quote]


Group 1 is close to me for slowfire. I shift more into group 2 in timed and rapid. Still, either group description is not quite there yet for me. Perhaps failures of language is the problem. We might confuse "subconscious" with "without direct thinking, but awareness is there". My best shooting comes with a complete awareness that the sights are aligned, but the mechanisms getting and keeping them aligned, are not in my thinking. Similarly, trigger awareness is there to different degrees. The awareness is of pressure in slowfire, and shifts more to awareness of rhythm in sustained. Again the mechanisms or physical driving actions are not in my conscious mind. Now if i could just do this all the time.

Dan brings up a good point.

Its not the subtle techinques that are going to make a big difference at this point, but things such as how to prevent the twitches that make my shot miss the black.

So let's back up a bit, and ask a better question.
What were some things that you wish you knew in the beginning, that took you awhile to figure out?

Like little details that make the big differences.

I should start keeping a log of my questions, as sometimes the coach's answers are fuzzy or biased, and a larger body can provide better insight.