TargetTalk

To the forum:

Exists the risk of over training with a session from one hour to day.?


Thank you,

Nano

That's about what I do!


John

Danger in overtraining- yes absolutely!

How much is too much- depends on the individual situation.

Remember the principle of work-rest-recovery.

Many smaller duration sessions is better than fewer longer durations.

As long as each session is long enough to achieve training effects without fatigue.

Steve Swartz

(I work 15-25 hrs per week; about 1/3 physical training, 1/3 technique drills, 1/3 shooting process drills. Typical day is 1 hr aerobic/anaerobic; 30 minute rest; 30-45 minute technique drill; 30 minute rest; 30-60 minutes shooting [or therabouts])

Steve Swartz(I work 15-25 hrs per week; about 1/3 physical training, 1/3 technique drills, 1/3 shooting process drills. Typical day is 1 hr aerobic/anaerobic; 30 minute rest; 30-45 minute technique drill; 30 minute rest; 30-60 minutes shooting [or therabouts])

Steve, I bet most of us working stiffs don't have that 3-4 hours/day free to train/practice. Yet we still tire/burnout. Do you think we can burnout due to just the hassle of juggling time between work, family, etc.?

Could depressed, stressed or guilt feeling from being away from family or work be a burnout factor. How about being just a performance factor.

Steve:

Please explain to me.
I ask if one hour per day could be overtraining, you say yes, one our a day are 7 ours a week, but you are training 15 - 25 hrs per week.
In one hour, I make one complete match (60 shoots).
The diference is the rest time?

Thank´s,

Nano

Jack:

I wake up at 4:00 am and still get to work by 9:00 am. Family doesn't see my "away time" for training. Don't get to watch a lot of late-night TV . . .

Nano:

The key is work a long enough session to get training benefit. When you start a training activity, it will take you a few minutes to achieve a "value added" level of concentration/focus. Now you will have a peak amount of time when you are actually learning and making progress. Eventually, you will get less and less benefit as you tire. The question of exactly where that "training sweet spot" is over a training session will vary from individual to individual. For me, I stop "making money" if I train for more than 45 minutes or so.

Then you need to rest, relax, and do something else.

The amount of rest time you need before being able to get maximium benefit again (start another hihg-quality session) will also vary between individuals. If I keep my training sessions short (30 minutes) all I need is another 30 minutes or so reading email, watching news, eating breakfast, whatever and then am ready to jump back in again.

So theoretically, assuming I didn't have to work for a living (well, ok, be physically available at my place of employment!) I could start these 30 minute work-30 minute rest-30 minute work cycles for several hours per day.

Also consider that you can interweave physical training, mental training, and technique training back and forth little tighter (because they are dissimilar) than doing the same thing over and over.

Hope this is making sense?

Steve Swartz

Thank you Steve.
Really make sense.

Nano

Hi Steve,

Not to pry, but would you be able to provide us with an example of what a typical training day looks like? I'm just curious as to how another 'working stiff' manages to juggle the demands of work, family, training, etc.

Steve D.

Sure Steve; as many of you know, I'm not "shy" about discussing almost anything!

Typical training day/week:

0430: throw alarm clock across bedroom
0445: physical therapy for shoulder, elbow
0500: high rep, low weight training (arms or upper body or core)
0520: aerobic exercise (biking or running or stairmaster)
0600: recover- breakfast, read paper etc.
0615: technique drills (holding on blank/bull with alignment, trigger, etc)
0700: ablutions
0730: match training/analysis (RIKA session with shot plan, match plan)

0815: work

1730: dry fire/live fire or work "issues" (problem areas identified earlier)
1815: dinner, rest, whatever

2015: Mental work (imagery, self hypnosis, etc.)
2045: lights out

Note that the season of "Lost" has started up so Wednesday evenings are dry fire at TV during commercials . . . Note that on weekends I shoot a match every Sunday morning 0600-0700 and Saturday is pretty much a down day.

Leading up to a big match, I will ramp up some extra Saturday/Sunday training.

Note that I never claimed I was talented, just hard-working . . . and probably somewhat obsessive/compulsive.

HTH

Steve

"probably somewhat obsessive/compulsive. "

Isn't that like saying New Orleans was a little damp after Katrina?

Steve, that was like putting a bullseye on your back...

The term “over training” may have something to do with expectations and attitude with increased or extensive training. Is your attitude that by doing this training I MUST improve and hence frustration becomes the major outcome?

If you are not using the correct techniques or placing the wrong emphasis on different techniques, again, frustration could be the out come.

If your attitude is more like “I can and will improve” (versus MUST) and "I deserve to do well because of my hard training", frustration should be less of an outcome.

Steve Swartz wrote:Note that I never claimed I was talented, just hard-working . . . and probably somewhat obsessive/compulsive.

And you go into a match KNOWING that you have done more work than anyone else. You have earned the right to be there and do well.

Ahh Pete, David, couple of good thoughts that might need extension (epiphany moments):

1) Overtraining has both Physical and Mental aspects; our discussion so far has only tangentially addressed the mental aspect. In an earlier post to Nano we talked about the "micro" train-rest-train cycle from the standpoint of burnout (loss of focus) during a single session by going too long and the rest cycle required to fully recover- in order to train at peak intensity again at the next cycle. Pete's comment though suggests the "Macro" cycle of developing and carrying expectations forward day after day over time . . . if Nano is still engaged in the conversation, I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on this aspect as well.

For me personally, I don't think I am as sensitive to this macro issue perhaps because of my "obsessive personality flaw" or "high need for structure/discipline" whatever. I derive great personal satisfaction from developing, tweaking, and sticking to a training schedule over an extended period of time . . . adjusting along hte way . . . measuring progress in subtle ways . . . "The JOURNEY is the Destination" kind of philosophy . . . ? This attitude (?) personality flaw (?) makes me kind of immune to a certain degree perhaps from "macro" burnout?

Is there anything to be learned from this? Can anyone else relate? Perhaps this is a bigger training issue than most of us recognize?


2) David- the comment about "deserving to be there" is an epiphany moment for me personally as well (thanks). Perhaps an attitude of "I am disadvantaged therefore I must work harder" comes into play here as well. Face it- I (at least; perhaps many of us are too) am jealous of those who have chosen and have the ability to train more or less full time. Well, not in a negative way; maybe envious is a better term. Anyhow, my attitude is that "I can beat those guys even though I am a part timer." This I think feeds an attitude of pretty much always being behind, always having to work harder.

This probably insulates me quite a bit from burnout as well. However, it also probably contributes to the "wheels coming off syndrome" too; you know, when you get into the self destructive loop of losing focus, missing some releases, then "panicking" during a match and pitching your shot plan overboard?

Have you ever had a match where just when you decided it was totally hopeless, and you might as well just throw the sights up there and yank away- and that's when the tens come back?

Sorry for babbling. The mental/attitudinal stuff is important, but hard to discuss because 1) it's personal; and 2) everybody sees the same things a little differently.

So how do we integrate our training into our matches so we can carry a "Winning Attitude" into every competition, and maintain a high degree of Intensity AND Relaxed Focus?

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote:So how do we integrate our training into our matches so we can carry a "Winning Attitude" into every competition, and maintain a high degree of Intensity AND Relaxed Focus?

IMHO this is THE question.

What worked for me was being lucky enough to find a training partner of similar ability and ambition. If we were not involved in a match then we would get together for at least one day each weekend. Whilst we both accepted that we were "only" training and thus free to declare what aspects we were particularly working on, it then turned into a competition on that training excercise.

The main benefits (and I accept that there may have been disadvantages) were:-

1) Participating in matches was no problem. We were used to competing.
2) Your shooting performance became important to someone else.
3) We had someone "on tap" to discuss problems/ideas with.
4) There was no way of skipping our weekend training sessions.

David:

Excellent post- right to the heart of it. You can coach each other; at least in terms of enforcing some "discipline" onto each other's training process. You can motivate each other.

Do you have any particular structure (macro; weekly-monthly-annually) to your match preps and training in general?

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote:Do you have any particular structure (macro; weekly-monthly-annually) to your match preps and training in general?

Steve we are talking about nearly 20 years ago, detailed training programmes were still several years in the future.

I do remember however that during our discussions of what we wanted to do in that day's training we invariably agreed that it was our trigger technique that needed work. We were both Centre Fire and Standard Pistol shooters. At the time it always suprised me that we both agreed that shooting 20 second strings gave us the best trigger results. In hindsight I believe that we were right.

Steve Swartz,

This response is primarily for you, but instead of sending it direct, I decided to put it up here so the rest of the group can review/comment(/flame/bash/dispute...). First, for the rest of the group, Steve and I do know each other from past AF Team days, but spend much too little time discussing the finer points of shooting these days. I wish we had that time...

Anyway, back to Steve: (Do remember that I'm merely observing/suggesting from afar and many details may not mesh totally between my interpretation and yours. You may have already reviewed/dismissed these areas, or might tell me my eye is yet more brown than before...)

To start, let me ask some questions. These are more for thought than response at this point:

(random order, except for sub-questions)

Why do you relegate your mental training to the evening hours?

Does "lights out" mean house lights or yours?
- Does "Mental work" at 2015 carry into "lights out at 2045?"

What do you believe is a good AP score?

Do you believe yourself to be elite?

Do you believe that you have to pay a price to reap a reward?
- Heavy price, bigger reward, perhaps?
- What is your definition of hard work; physical/mental?

What is your personal belief in your current capability?
- Are you producing the scores you expect?
- (Don't confuse expectations with wants)

In regards to your mental training, have you meditated to a state where you are able to resolve all outstanding issues?
- Can you achieve empty mind states of meditation?

Now for some further comments:

(Again, random order. Also, although mostly to Steve, many of my comments will be towards the group.)

In order to gain the most benefit of empty mind or clear focus shooting, it is necessary to address, during meditation, all outstanding issues and resolve them. This is not done in the preparation period of a match. This is done in the mental training times. To achieve the best rewards all unresolved issues must be addressed in a timely manner and either resolved or scheduled for future resolution. It is also important to hold to those future schedules for further addressing of those unresolved issues. Only after many such meditation sessions, can one free themselves of all the interruptions while shooting. This will help to focus on the now, without unresolved issues becoming "white elephants."

This is not meant to flame anyone, but think about my question above as to what you think is a good score. Many of the list members will answer 550/600 for "their" AP score. This is OK for a vast number of shooters, but I'm sure everyone will agree that it isn't OK for a world class competitor that aspires to win an event. I would suggest considering a score about 60% between your current average and the available score as what you should consider a good score. You should also mentally adjust your perceived average to about 30% above.

We have a tendency to consider those who do well as super normal, talented, etc. I like a statement at the end of the U.S. MARINE CORPS PISTOL TEAM PROGRAM WORKBOOK introduction, which reads, "It is often said that a winner is an exceptionally gifted or extraordinary individual. While there are some people who fit this definition, we have based this training program on the belief that a winner is an ordinary individual with extraordinary determination to be the best. To put this another way, he or she has an all-consuming desire to win!" I firmly support the described belief.

To take this further, a champion takes on a mental role of being a champion. To be a champion, the first step is to become that champion in our thoughts, which will carry us there through our actions taking on the patterns of a champion. Part of that "all-consuming desire to win" is what brings us the interest to study so hard for so much time. (I really like the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull for an example of the interest in learning a paticular study. His was flight; ours is shooting.) A champion, like you, Steve, makes time to do the things necessary to train, instead of "wishing" they had time to train. I see this "champion attitude" in your schedule.

Steve, you (and I) have studied hard to find all the little technical nuances. We have a deep rooted "need to know" when it comes to all sorts of details, and we've spent a lot of time in studying them. We have to know the reason why, not just "that's the way it is." But along with that understanding, we also need to spend the time creating the image that we seek for the future, in the now. We have to be able to set aside the perceived reality of the moment, to dream, and then take steps to bring that dream into our pattern and belief structure. Then, we must believe that dream not only to be obtainable, but that it has already been met. Once we take that attitude, the sky is limitless. Those of us with scientific mind are stubborn in our attachment to the truth of today. But many achievements have been made by people who weren't held back by the truth that "it couldnt be done."

I've suggested to many that all mental imagery be of perfect things, whether it is application of fundamentals or results of matches. I am often met with the reply from an individual that they can't visualize perfection because it isn't real and they aren't going to fire a perfect match. That's the point - as long as that is their belief, they will never fire a perfect match. Up until several years ago (Gee, actually, it might be going on twenty...), the Bianchi cup had not had a perfect score fired. A young shooter on his way up hadn't been indoctrinated into the "it can't be done" thinking and fired a perfect score. Every year since then, it has taken a perfect score to win that match.

I'm going to bring up USMC Gunnery Sergeant Brian Zins, the current Conventional Pistol National Champion, who has also done some shooting in the International arena. For benefit of other readers, he is the only shooter to win the NRA National Pistol Championship seven times (this last win was despite ammo troubles in one event - can you say "on the paper visible miss?"). Although not sequential in calendar years, they are the last seven times he fired in the Nationals (maybe the only seven times). He has not fired a perfect 2700/2700 in a fired match. (No one has.) However, every night prior to sleep, he fires a perfect match mentally. In his words, he hasn't "dropped a single point in all those matches."

Steve, I bring all this up to suggest that, at this point, if you aren't, you should work the mental aspects into the other areas of both training and day-to-day activities. Instead of relegating it to a little while in the evening, add it to the other portions as well. Next, if you're not there, change your attitude to that of an elite shooter who averages above 590 every time he fires a match. Of course, don't take the score to the match, but make yourself a believer that that's your norm. You are capable of firing 60 shots in a row into the ten ring. The only thing holding you back is your search for the way. Believe in the information you've acquired. Know that you have found a way. Understand that the info you now hold can take you there. Add in the realization that it may not always provide tens, but it will provide an average above 590. Put together some strong "affirmation statements" and make them true with your training. Then move them into the matches.

I'm not saying to break from your pursuit of the technically perfect trigger. I firmly believe the proper and consistent operation of the trigger to be the most important single issue of shooting tens. But, I believe you to be at a point where you need to realize your technique is perfected enough to provide tens, and you are capable of achieving those tens. Let go of your current perceived capability and grasp what you truly can obtain through the knowledge of what you can do.

The time is here to move up. You are that good! Be that good!

As a last comment:

So how do we integrate our training into our matches so we can carry a "Winning Attitude" into every competition, and maintain a high degree of Intensity AND Relaxed Focus?

Use mental training to convince ourselves that we are shooting under normal conditions and all is well. Let that provide confidence!

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

P.S. For those interested, Gunnery Sergeant Zins now has a web site, at which he has placed a Word copy of the U.S. MARINE CORPS PISTOL TEAM PROGRAM WORKBOOK. This workbook is a series of excercises the Marine Pistol Team Members are taken through, to prepare them for NRA Conventional Pistol Competition. If interested, look in the download section of his site at:

http://www.brianzins.com

@

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Ed:

Great post! Too bad Scott doesn't give awards for best reply, only best initial post! That one has certainly been downloaded and printed.

Not to address every single one of your points (that would require beer and pizza!) but I would like to mention:

1) "Mental Training" is integrated into entire workout regimen. For example, use of imagery and autosuggestion with keywords used during every drill, dry-fire match, etc.

2) Evening MT is specifically the imprinting exercise; done in the evening because that's when I am able to enter autosuggestive state fastest and most deeply (is that even correct grammar?).

3) Good score for me is 600/600. However, good score is irrelevant. Performance objective is 60 perfect shots in a row- where they end up on the target is a side-effect (Gotcha!).

4) My imagery is still weak; can only visualize (reliably) terminal portion of shot process without distraction at this time. I have added some "focus/concentration" exercises to my routine.

5) I am now able to "flow" into deep empty during last portion of shot process maybe 70% of the time. The other 30% I can recognize the weakness and abort (15%) but hte other 15% of the time I still release the shot. That's where 15-25 9s come from each match . . .

Steve Swartz

Great post! Too bad Scott doesn't give awards for best reply, only best initial post! That one has certainly been downloaded and printed.

Thanks Steve! If I was interested in an award I suppose I could just post some really radical, far out thinking, original post and see what replies appear... hmmm...

I hadn't requested a thorough reply. A lot was for contemplation and later response, if warranted. I appreciate what you provided. It was good information back. I'm glad you have integrated the mental training into the rest of the exercises. Have you also taken some of the imagery to other areas such as work, and added some subliminal training?

There's a point that has been sticking a little with me from your posts for quite a while, and I have been trying to find a way to express my thoughts. I'm going to try to tackle the issue here, but I need to leave you room to deeply consider my possibly confusing description.

Anyway, here goes:

(This is my long distance understanding of your shot process based on what I've picked up through your posts. It may not be valid.) When you develop a shot and have come to the last point before release, you seem to be in a hold pattern waiting for the shot to occur. You have as strong a focus as you can on the front sight, but at the same time somewhere in your conscious process there is a question as to whether you will need to abort this shot. In a way, this is still a conscious control. How deeply toward your subconscious have you been able to move this abort signal? I guess, what I'm asking is, are you able to remove the abort/go decision from your process such that the only abort message is when the shot isn't fired and you realize it. To put it into different words, I believe to truly have full focus on performing the perfect shot, you have to have full conscious effort on the idea that the shot will happen. You can't be looking for reasons not to fire. The decision to fire has to come from the subconscious not finishing the trigger operation. The first thought, which should be the only one necessary, is that you consciously realize the shot didn't happen and put the gun down.

I'm not sure I've described this well, but hope so. I also hope you can understand what I'm trying to get at, and how your process fits into the description I've given.

To the visualization:

I believe in three different scenes to be visualized for each shot taken. I also believe these three should be worked on elsewhere along with other scenes. The three during the shot process are as follows:

1) a clear visual image of the perfect sight picture to as much detail as possible. This should be briefly visualized prior to the shot.

2) a clear visual image of the perfect execution of the shot. This should be visualized while performing the shot. The truly perfect process should allow a synchronous overlay of the perfect visualization with the real life activity unfolding. IOW, you should not notice a difference between your imagery and your physical view. It should be like watching the same scene with each eye, only in this case, one is your mind's eye replaying your visualization. Any deviation can be recognized, but shouldn't be searched for. Instead synchronous unfolding should be the goal.

3) a clear visual image after the release, of a perfect result. This should take the place of your immediate target review. The paper hole is not relevant. The belief that everything's perfect is. If it isn't perfect, you don't need to know just yet.

Now to something about the focus on the front sight which is really from a different thread, but I feel it fits in here. The physical focus on the front sight is most important to allow the subconscious to evaluate the activity of the gun. The clearer the sights, the better the evaluation. The mental focus needs to direct the physical focus to be there, but can be occupied with the visualization unfolding. Both the visualization and the sight focus should be part of the synchronous unfolding described above.

Now to briefly address what happens if you hit something other than a ten: So, what? The AP matches are won by shooters who fire less than 600. A 600 would be nice, but what's the difference between 600, 595, 590, etc. I'm not sure I feel good about counting tens in a row, or even non-tens in a row. I'd like to know what the scores would be if we weren't able to know until the end. What adjustments would we not make? What emotions would we not have to endure? How pure would our 60 shot processes be? Of course, we're clever humans that thrive on emotion and I'm sure we'd find a way to get emotionally wrapped around our curiosity...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/