Within the realm of the AP, there are several current choices of guns which offer much to the competitor. It is a buyers market! However, it seems that with Free pistol we are currently trapped beteen old and new school.
There seems to be some older models which perform well and are dearly loved by many.(You know the names!) Some are exquisite examples of workmanship. But these models do not incorporate many of the features we have come to expect (full adjustment of triggers, sight pictures, grips, and weight). Compared to AP, these guns could be analogous to the FWB 65.
Meanwhile, the new school of FPs has failed to win over a majority of shooters as have the current crop of compressed APs such as Steyr, Morini, Pardini, Walther.
Current production is a problem. Many are faithful to FPs which are long out of production. Meanwhile, there seems to be a lack of new models to satisfy a diversity of tastes.
I have tried hard to avoid criticizing or praising any particular FPs. I base my observations on personal experience and the many informed opinions on this board.
So, what do you think?
Personally, I would like to see a new FP with a wide range of adjustments for all aspects of shooter/pistol interfaces (ie: trigger, sight picture, grip size/angle, weight/balance), and a choice of mechanical or electronic operation (my choice would be mechanical). An effective compensator would be nice. What about materials? Steel frame or Alloy? And don't forget us lefties! Ambidextrious controls please!
Let's hear what your likes and dislikes are and see if we can motivate the powers that be!
State of the FP
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Lothrop
> I would like to see a new FP with a wide range of
> adjustments for all aspects of shooter/pistol interfaces
> (ie: trigger, sight picture, grip size/angle, weight/balance),
> and a choice of mechanical or electronic operation....
> An effective compensator would be nice.
Maybe we should concentrate more on developing our shooting skill and less on make-it-easier features.
> Let's hear what your likes and dislikes are and
> see if we can motivate the powers that be!
- Nix the plastic
- Keep aluminum the color of aluminum
- Keep counterweight at the muzzle or along the bore line
- Keep triggers mechanical
> adjustments for all aspects of shooter/pistol interfaces
> (ie: trigger, sight picture, grip size/angle, weight/balance),
> and a choice of mechanical or electronic operation....
> An effective compensator would be nice.
Maybe we should concentrate more on developing our shooting skill and less on make-it-easier features.
> Let's hear what your likes and dislikes are and
> see if we can motivate the powers that be!
- Nix the plastic
- Keep aluminum the color of aluminum
- Keep counterweight at the muzzle or along the bore line
- Keep triggers mechanical
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Bob LeDoux
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:08 pm
- Location: Jefferson, OR (near Salem)
Mechanical Triggers--Why?
I shoot a Morini 162EI air pistol with electronic trigger and Pardini free pistol. My other hobby is robotics involving smart microprocessor systems.
Considering the tremendous capabilities found in electronic systems, it remains for an experimenter to create a 'smart box' between the shooter's trigger finger and the firing pin. Because the market for free pistols is so small, it may take an entrepreneur to "change the paradigm."
The major challenge will be to keep the smart capabilities within the spirit of shooting competition.
As an example, imagine a trigger monitoring black box that refuses to fire the shot if the trigger pressure-time curve falls outside the standards set in practice. In other words, the shot is fired only if the trigger pressure is taken up at a rate found optimal in training. Delays in firing the shot (overholding) could also prevent firing.
This is just an example. A mechanism that prevents the shooter from making a bad shot might be more in the spirit of the rules than a mechanism that determines when the hold is best and then fires.
Traditionalists, who think of a mechanical gun as the only way to go, may scoff. But the success of the Morini electronic trigger demonstrates that non-mechanical systems have performance advantages. The real competitor won't worry about the mechanism. Its the results that count.
Considering the tremendous capabilities found in electronic systems, it remains for an experimenter to create a 'smart box' between the shooter's trigger finger and the firing pin. Because the market for free pistols is so small, it may take an entrepreneur to "change the paradigm."
The major challenge will be to keep the smart capabilities within the spirit of shooting competition.
As an example, imagine a trigger monitoring black box that refuses to fire the shot if the trigger pressure-time curve falls outside the standards set in practice. In other words, the shot is fired only if the trigger pressure is taken up at a rate found optimal in training. Delays in firing the shot (overholding) could also prevent firing.
This is just an example. A mechanism that prevents the shooter from making a bad shot might be more in the spirit of the rules than a mechanism that determines when the hold is best and then fires.
Traditionalists, who think of a mechanical gun as the only way to go, may scoff. But the success of the Morini electronic trigger demonstrates that non-mechanical systems have performance advantages. The real competitor won't worry about the mechanism. Its the results that count.
Sure and the next thing you may want is a release trigger---that would really be the way to go or would it? Yes, there is a dearth on new toys on the FP market and righfully so---the TOZ is like the AK47 of the world---so many were made and they are without a doubt the most popular FP bar none. Hammerli is producing a new FP---hopefully it will be made by whatever is left of Hammerli and not Morini as the ill-fated FP-10. I recently had conversations regarding the 160 Special of Hammerli and people didn't recognize the 150 "flying wing" in new clothes---I love it and quite frankly I will never out shoot this gun. Currently the TOZ, Morini CM84E and the Pardini are the only new choices out there. If Hammerli really manufactures the new FP just wait and see the cost of this one, which I will bet will exceed $2500---guess how many will be sold to other than national teams---at that price. It will have to be a miracle maker producing scores in the 575+ region in the hands of some genius living machine rest.
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Steve Swartz
Okay- let's assume you have a shooter who wants to shoot tens. This shooter doesn't give a rip about Old School, New School, or what kind of underwear the current national Champion of Outer Blovenia is shooting.
The gun is only a tool. The ten comes from the shooter. The tool can assist, or get in hte way. Our theoretical shooter wants a tool that:
- Points naturally (may require adjustable grip swivel, tilt, etc.)
- Aligns clearly (may require adjustable F&R sight widths, depths, etc.)
- Breaks cleanly (may require trigger adjustable in many directions)
- Remains stable during release (may require constant force profile trigger)
- Supports follow-through (may require compensator)
- Is Deep-Ten accurate (requires 60 shots from mechanical rest all inside inner ten)
These are not "gimmicks." These are not "crutches."
These are design parameters.
NONE of the current crop of guns meets ALL of these parameters. ALL of the current guns meet SOME of these parameters.
Which gun YOU think is BEST is a result of which of those parameters above is most important to YOU.
(I'm not shouting; just EMPHASIZING important words!)
Steve Swartz
The gun is only a tool. The ten comes from the shooter. The tool can assist, or get in hte way. Our theoretical shooter wants a tool that:
- Points naturally (may require adjustable grip swivel, tilt, etc.)
- Aligns clearly (may require adjustable F&R sight widths, depths, etc.)
- Breaks cleanly (may require trigger adjustable in many directions)
- Remains stable during release (may require constant force profile trigger)
- Supports follow-through (may require compensator)
- Is Deep-Ten accurate (requires 60 shots from mechanical rest all inside inner ten)
These are not "gimmicks." These are not "crutches."
These are design parameters.
NONE of the current crop of guns meets ALL of these parameters. ALL of the current guns meet SOME of these parameters.
Which gun YOU think is BEST is a result of which of those parameters above is most important to YOU.
(I'm not shouting; just EMPHASIZING important words!)
Steve Swartz
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Guest
Eletronics for triggers? Final countdown for this topic...
Bob the Doux:
The best mechanical triggers of today are very good.
So why bother with electronics that soner or later (always it seems) will bring trouble?
Some of my shooting pals that jumped on the electro.-trigger bandwaggon experienced trouble in the long run, and got competitions ruined from malfunctions of their electro triggers. Most have jumped off that electro-trigger bandwaggon now.
The best mech. triggers are reliable, stable. No fuzz, no trouble. No exhausted batteries, no broken circuits, no defect condensers, just plain, reliable trigger action.
I have owned an electronic Morini, and I will not buy another. Period.
To those out there who still believe an electro. trigger will make them shoot better scores: use the time wasted in thinking of electro triggers for practizing with your mech. AP or FP.
The best mechanical triggers of today are very good.
So why bother with electronics that soner or later (always it seems) will bring trouble?
Some of my shooting pals that jumped on the electro.-trigger bandwaggon experienced trouble in the long run, and got competitions ruined from malfunctions of their electro triggers. Most have jumped off that electro-trigger bandwaggon now.
The best mech. triggers are reliable, stable. No fuzz, no trouble. No exhausted batteries, no broken circuits, no defect condensers, just plain, reliable trigger action.
I have owned an electronic Morini, and I will not buy another. Period.
To those out there who still believe an electro. trigger will make them shoot better scores: use the time wasted in thinking of electro triggers for practizing with your mech. AP or FP.
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Guest
> The gun is only a tool. The ten comes from the shooter.
In that case the TOZ is completely adequate. FP seems to be going the route of the skateboard--a contest between manufacturers to empty wallets of the gullible by making the most outrageous techno-toy. It's not about widgets and commercialism, it's about developing your ability to shoot. The scores that have been shot with the TOZ support that.
In that case the TOZ is completely adequate. FP seems to be going the route of the skateboard--a contest between manufacturers to empty wallets of the gullible by making the most outrageous techno-toy. It's not about widgets and commercialism, it's about developing your ability to shoot. The scores that have been shot with the TOZ support that.
I see little wrong with the current crop of pistols. All of the grips are fully customizable with a little putty, a file, and the courage to mess with them. We have a variety of triggers with an array of adjustability. All of the sights are customizable, even the Toz (it's called a pillar file). Want a compensator, then buy or build one and put it on... Put a Morini sight on a Toz if you want... Have a custom barrel turned for your pistol. It just takes some money. It's free pistol after all and you can do most anything as long as its open sights, 22 and one handed.
So why do we keep using these ancient designs? Its because few shooters even come close to utilizing the potential their current free pistol. The time spent messing with the hardware would be better spent in further training. The pistol is just a tool.
Larry
So why do we keep using these ancient designs? Its because few shooters even come close to utilizing the potential their current free pistol. The time spent messing with the hardware would be better spent in further training. The pistol is just a tool.
Larry
Re: Eletronics for triggers? Final countdown for this topic.
Sorry but whilst your experience is what it is mine is somewhat different. Apart from flat batteries I can say I know of no problems with the morini triggers amongst the shooters I know. I had a problem with my pardini free pistol in that it's manual trigger malfunctioned, this is apparently not uncommon. Heck these things happen.Guest wrote:Bob the Doux:
The best mechanical triggers of today are very good.
So why bother with electronics that soner or later (always it seems) will bring trouble?
Some of my shooting pals that jumped on the electro.-trigger bandwaggon experienced trouble in the long run, and got competitions ruined from malfunctions of their electro triggers. Most have jumped off that electro-trigger bandwaggon now.
The best mech. triggers are reliable, stable. No fuzz, no trouble. No exhausted batteries, no broken circuits, no defect condensers, just plain, reliable trigger action.
I have owned an electronic Morini, and I will not buy another. Period.
To those out there who still believe an electro. trigger will make them shoot better scores: use the time wasted in thinking of electro triggers for practizing with your mech. AP or FP.
Electronic triggers are not a panacea cure for bad technique but they do offer advantages that good shooters can take advantage of. In a few years time there will be I suspect many more electronic triggers in guns on the market, and if Steyr make one I'll certainly be seriously considering it.
Rob.
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Steve Swartz
Person Who Desires to Remain Anonymous" wrote:
"The best mech. triggers are reliable, stable. No fuzz, no trouble. No exhausted batteries, no broken circuits, no defect condensers, just plain, reliable trigger action."
Not to be argumentative here- but claiming that mechanical triggers don't fail is, well, somewhat contradicted by reality.
Mechanical triggers and electronic triggers each have failure modes and hazard rates.
While it is true that a couple of notorious early electronic designs were arguably less reliable than comparable mechanical designs, it is also true that it is no longer 1975. Or even 1985, for that matter.
Steve Swartz
"The best mech. triggers are reliable, stable. No fuzz, no trouble. No exhausted batteries, no broken circuits, no defect condensers, just plain, reliable trigger action."
Not to be argumentative here- but claiming that mechanical triggers don't fail is, well, somewhat contradicted by reality.
Mechanical triggers and electronic triggers each have failure modes and hazard rates.
While it is true that a couple of notorious early electronic designs were arguably less reliable than comparable mechanical designs, it is also true that it is no longer 1975. Or even 1985, for that matter.
Steve Swartz
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ted
Steve,
Geat to see see you in this thread. Hope you can make it down to KY for our state AP championship on Apr.16. I agree with a lot of viewpoints above. I will add the cost was a major determining factor in my decision to get a Toz. I beiieve the other manufacturers have simply priced themselves out of potential batch of loyal customers but, that's their busines to decide I guess. The exorbitant prices for these guns simply puts a further barrier at getting our youth to participate in a great Olympic sport. Having coahed a junior program for 9 years now, I can say first hand that a 14-19 year old simply does not have the $ to fork out eithr $7-$900 for a used or sometimes double that for a new FP. Hey, does anyone think we can get the word out to the manufacturers about this??
Geat to see see you in this thread. Hope you can make it down to KY for our state AP championship on Apr.16. I agree with a lot of viewpoints above. I will add the cost was a major determining factor in my decision to get a Toz. I beiieve the other manufacturers have simply priced themselves out of potential batch of loyal customers but, that's their busines to decide I guess. The exorbitant prices for these guns simply puts a further barrier at getting our youth to participate in a great Olympic sport. Having coahed a junior program for 9 years now, I can say first hand that a 14-19 year old simply does not have the $ to fork out eithr $7-$900 for a used or sometimes double that for a new FP. Hey, does anyone think we can get the word out to the manufacturers about this??
Ted,ted wrote: Hey, does anyone think we can get the word out to the manufacturers about this??
I think the economics of the free pistol business are probably pretty tough; craft-production vs. mass production, and the declining value of the US dollar against the euro are factors that are a bigger problem than greedy manufacturers:-)
Richard
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Jim in SC
Granted, there is wisdom in idea that equipment is no substitute for training. However, how many of us would voluntarily trade in our compressed air APs for an older co2 or pneumatic AP? There is nothing inherently faulty in the older designs. They are capable shooting instruments. Yet, it's been a couple years since I've seen a co2 fill tank at the range or at a match. Evolution of competition firearms doesn't make the game easier. On the contrary, by further refinement it it tilts the scale more towards the shooter as ultimately being responsible for the outcome of score. Yes, it is a small market, but I would like to think the builders of high end equipment in any field are motivated by more than profit. Hopefully, the makers have the passion to refine the performance of their products as much as we endeavor to refine our performance on the firing line! Are we to believe that we've gone as far as we can go?
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Guest
> how many of us would voluntarily trade in our
> compressed air APs for an older co2 or pneumatic AP?
Having learned to shoot with spring guns 30 years ago, I'd have no trouble shooting and being competitive with a pneumatic. I swear, you youngsters are a bunch of wussies.
> Evolution of competition firearms doesn't make the game easier.
You should have a long think about that comment.
> Are we to believe that we've gone as far as we can go?
If you need a flashy new gun to improve your scores, then maybe you have.
> compressed air APs for an older co2 or pneumatic AP?
Having learned to shoot with spring guns 30 years ago, I'd have no trouble shooting and being competitive with a pneumatic. I swear, you youngsters are a bunch of wussies.
> Evolution of competition firearms doesn't make the game easier.
You should have a long think about that comment.
> Are we to believe that we've gone as far as we can go?
If you need a flashy new gun to improve your scores, then maybe you have.
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Bob LeDoux
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:08 pm
- Location: Jefferson, OR (near Salem)
A followup
Electronic trainers, like the Rika, serve to optomize technique. When used during a 60 shot sequence they also demonstrate changes in technique that may contribute to less than optimal scores.
Imagine much of this capability built into a real pistol so the shooter would continue to monitor changes in technique during competition.
These capabilities are possible by melding current microprocssor technology with target gun design.
The popularity of the Morini electronic trigger in competition speaks volumes about its reliability and superiority.
Imagine much of this capability built into a real pistol so the shooter would continue to monitor changes in technique during competition.
These capabilities are possible by melding current microprocssor technology with target gun design.
The popularity of the Morini electronic trigger in competition speaks volumes about its reliability and superiority.
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pilkguns back from Vegas
"Hammerli is producing a new FP---hopefully it will be made by whatever is left of Hammerli and not Morini as the ill-fated FP-10. "
just to make sure this clear. the Morini firm in Bedano Switzerland that makes the 84E FP and the 1621 AP had nothing to do with the FP10.
Cesare Morini, whose name graces the Bedano's firm above two mentioned famous, fucntional guns, ironically had nothing to do with either of them. Unfornately he had everything to do with other Edsel's of the shooting world, such as the 102, the SAM/Anschutz M10, K11-12etc, FP10, and now I fear, based on the past track record, the MG1 and 2.
just to make sure this clear. the Morini firm in Bedano Switzerland that makes the 84E FP and the 1621 AP had nothing to do with the FP10.
Cesare Morini, whose name graces the Bedano's firm above two mentioned famous, fucntional guns, ironically had nothing to do with either of them. Unfornately he had everything to do with other Edsel's of the shooting world, such as the 102, the SAM/Anschutz M10, K11-12etc, FP10, and now I fear, based on the past track record, the MG1 and 2.
Sir,ust to make sure this clear. the Morini firm in Bedano Switzerland that makes the 84E FP and the 1621 AP had nothing to do with the FP10.
Cesare Morini, whose name graces the Bedano's firm above two mentioned famous, fucntional guns, ironically had nothing to do with either of them. Unfornately he had everything to do with other Edsel's of the shooting world, such as the 102, the SAM/Anschutz M10, K11-12etc, FP10, and now I fear, based on the past track record, the MG1 and 2.
The 102E is a little kinky but it can shoot well if you do after care and before care.
The elektronic in 102 is the same as in 162 E!
The grip on 102E is The same as on my 162E!
The rear sight on 102E is the same as on 84E
Who designed what I might ask.
If you do not sell a pistol in your country is not the same as "bad "and "ill fated". Do you have any long term experiense of FP 10? Or 102E?
I do not recommend 102E but some pistols goes 1000 rounds wihout trouble, without cleaning! Right ammo, right return spring, right...
Kent
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Not a Wuss
The DC3 and DC6 were great aircraft. I remember flying from NY to St Paul on a DC6. But if I have to fly to St Paul tomorrow, I would just as soon fly on a modern jet.Anonymous wrote:>
Having learned to shoot with spring guns 30 years ago, I'd have no trouble shooting and being competitive with a pneumatic. I swear, you youngsters are a bunch of wussies.
The Colt SA 45 was a great pistol. Still is. But I would rather a modern Glock in my hand if I have to defend myself.
Fred
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Jim in SC
Dear anonymous "Guest"
Regarding the use of the term "wussies" (I've seen worse here) and alluding to our supposed inability to improve scores without "flashy guns", consider this:
It seems that whenever anyone on this board is incapable of making an intelligent or constructive contribution to the discussion, or cannot simply state their own opinion with due respect to others, they inevitably resort to name-calling and slurs against one's aptitude on the firing line.
Steve Schwartz has entered several posts with well thought out but highly subjective opinions, and he so often gets blasted.
Someone else here alluded to "instruments", an appropriate term for our tools. A fine instrument does not make a piece of music easier to play, but it rewards the performer with a responsiveness worthy of an artist's talent.
So, regarding the current options for FPs, we deserve better or at least a better selection!
Regarding the use of the term "wussies" (I've seen worse here) and alluding to our supposed inability to improve scores without "flashy guns", consider this:
It seems that whenever anyone on this board is incapable of making an intelligent or constructive contribution to the discussion, or cannot simply state their own opinion with due respect to others, they inevitably resort to name-calling and slurs against one's aptitude on the firing line.
Steve Schwartz has entered several posts with well thought out but highly subjective opinions, and he so often gets blasted.
Someone else here alluded to "instruments", an appropriate term for our tools. A fine instrument does not make a piece of music easier to play, but it rewards the performer with a responsiveness worthy of an artist's talent.
So, regarding the current options for FPs, we deserve better or at least a better selection!