Ok, I´ll try to find better ammo. Local shop doesn´t have much selection, but there are two shops quite close that have more.. Don´t know who in Finland sells Eley Tenex, so I can´t test that.
I should be able to get RWS R50 & R100, Lapua Midas+, Polar Biathlon etc.
Buying old .22lr rifle
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Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
Jiri,
you may not need to test the most expensive ammunition. You should get more good results with Midas+ or R50, but Centre-X can shoot very well. However you may need to try more batches. In September I tested 12 batches of Eley Edge (roughly equivalent to Centre-X); the best batch shot shot tight groups (an average 105+ score), but some batches shot badly (20mm+ groups); if I had only tested one or two batches I might only have got the bad ones.
I would leave out the very cheap ammo, it's OK at shorter distances or for inexperienced shooters, but at 50m you have to be very lucky to find a very good batch.
you may not need to test the most expensive ammunition. You should get more good results with Midas+ or R50, but Centre-X can shoot very well. However you may need to try more batches. In September I tested 12 batches of Eley Edge (roughly equivalent to Centre-X); the best batch shot shot tight groups (an average 105+ score), but some batches shot badly (20mm+ groups); if I had only tested one or two batches I might only have got the bad ones.
I would leave out the very cheap ammo, it's OK at shorter distances or for inexperienced shooters, but at 50m you have to be very lucky to find a very good batch.
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
This is the first time I've read anyone saying EDGE shot. The lots I tested through the chronograph were awful as were the results at 50; much less 100. I can't even bring myself to practice with what's left.
Mark
Mark
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
Patriot,
my experience, testing with Eley themselves, was positive. Some batches were so-so, one or two were awful, but a couple were better than my selected Match. Others testing that day also had results good enough to warrant a purchase. My point to the OP was that you can get good results from mid-grade ammo when you match it to the barrel. At a 575 average, the shooter is probably responsible for more 9s than the ammunition, so in these cases the premium charged for top-grade ammo may not be justifiable.
my experience, testing with Eley themselves, was positive. Some batches were so-so, one or two were awful, but a couple were better than my selected Match. Others testing that day also had results good enough to warrant a purchase. My point to the OP was that you can get good results from mid-grade ammo when you match it to the barrel. At a 575 average, the shooter is probably responsible for more 9s than the ammunition, so in these cases the premium charged for top-grade ammo may not be justifiable.
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
I use a different approach when selecting ammo. I try to find the best ammo I can then tune the rifle to that ammo. I run 100 rounds through a chronograph to find the ES and SD. I've tested my two CED IIs to determine their error. While doing so I'm in a prone position with my left wrist supported. Why test off a bench when I'm competing in prone; recoil and tune are different. I note the elevation to the call and the velocity which tells me if I'm in tune. If not, I make adjustments as I test. I test at 100; not all lots that shoot at 50 do well at 100. I've built up a database over the years; it doesn't take long to know how the ammo will perform. Plus, the smaller the SD the less need for a tuner to "fix" the ammo.
Mark
Mark
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
A few posts back, discussing the bedding you stated
The typical solution in the United States is to install a bushing in the front bedding boss to restore the threads to original size. Now you say both screws are fine thread. The rear screw has not been messed with, but that front screw, in the occasional ambiguity of the metric fastening system is that fine thread M8 screw a M8-1.0 or M8-0.75? If it is an M8-0.75 there is a chance you will be able to get a consistent bedding torque and get the rifle tuned that way, if it is the M8-1.0 you really have no chance of ever getting the bedding truly tuned as the different thread pitch will result in different fastening tension for the same bolt torque then figuring out how different to make torques for even tension will be a difficult task. Even for the same pitch, due to diametrical differences and thread surface loading things are going to be different.
The whole idea with the bedding and glass/epoxy bedding is to have perfectly even loading the entire length of the action, if you cannot insure even bolt tension front to back this ideal will be hard to achieve.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news here.
A flip side to this is since your front screw is already M8 perhaps you could modify the rear to M8 as well, things would be stronger although the collective knowledge that says Anschutz shoot best somewhere between 4 to 6 Nm of bedding torque may no longer apply.
'Dude
You are correct, Anschutz used M6-0.75 threads on their bedding screws, front and back. Your modification, M8 in front with M6 in back is an interesting solution to a somewhat common problem on the Match 54 action, threads for the front bedding screw pulling out. This was much more common on the earlier Match 54 actions than yours, apparently due to some effects from the heat treating during barrel installation.I think Anschutz should have M6 mounting screws? Mine has M8 in front and M6 in the back. Both with fine thread.
The typical solution in the United States is to install a bushing in the front bedding boss to restore the threads to original size. Now you say both screws are fine thread. The rear screw has not been messed with, but that front screw, in the occasional ambiguity of the metric fastening system is that fine thread M8 screw a M8-1.0 or M8-0.75? If it is an M8-0.75 there is a chance you will be able to get a consistent bedding torque and get the rifle tuned that way, if it is the M8-1.0 you really have no chance of ever getting the bedding truly tuned as the different thread pitch will result in different fastening tension for the same bolt torque then figuring out how different to make torques for even tension will be a difficult task. Even for the same pitch, due to diametrical differences and thread surface loading things are going to be different.
The whole idea with the bedding and glass/epoxy bedding is to have perfectly even loading the entire length of the action, if you cannot insure even bolt tension front to back this ideal will be hard to achieve.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news here.
A flip side to this is since your front screw is already M8 perhaps you could modify the rear to M8 as well, things would be stronger although the collective knowledge that says Anschutz shoot best somewhere between 4 to 6 Nm of bedding torque may no longer apply.
'Dude
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
I see, that's a very thorough approach. Barrel tuners are creeping in here, but seem relatively uncommon except at top level. Most shooters I know are happy with batch testing either at Eley, or with Lapua/RWS at Bisley/Club days/in Germany, maybe with some tinkering to the bedding torque.patriot wrote:I use a different approach when selecting ammo. I try to find the best ammo I can then tune the rifle to that ammo. I run 100 rounds through a chronograph to find the ES and SD. I've tested my two CED IIs to determine their error. While doing so I'm in a prone position with my left wrist supported. Why test off a bench when I'm competing in prone; recoil and tune are different. I note the elevation to the call and the velocity which tells me if I'm in tune. If not, I make adjustments as I test. I test at 100; not all lots that shoot at 50 do well at 100. I've built up a database over the years; it doesn't take long to know how the ammo will perform. Plus, the smaller the SD the less need for a tuner to "fix" the ammo.
Mark
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
justadude, front screw seems to be M8x1.0. Rear screw is M6x0.75.
I don´t have a torque wrench and the ones my clubmates have don´t have right size tools so that won´t matter so much anyways. Just have to find right torque for each screw...
I´ll add a picture of the screws to that dropbox folder shortly, maybe you can tell if at least the rear screw is original?
I know two guys who have lathes and are good at machining things. Maybe make a M8x1.0 - M6x0.75 bushing and start using same size screws?
Tim S, I visited my local gun store today. They had Center-X and Pistol King at acceptable prices. Both with different batch codes than what I have tested before. Other store nearby has R50 and Midas+ at acceptable prices.
I don´t have a torque wrench and the ones my clubmates have don´t have right size tools so that won´t matter so much anyways. Just have to find right torque for each screw...
I´ll add a picture of the screws to that dropbox folder shortly, maybe you can tell if at least the rear screw is original?
I know two guys who have lathes and are good at machining things. Maybe make a M8x1.0 - M6x0.75 bushing and start using same size screws?
Tim S, I visited my local gun store today. They had Center-X and Pistol King at acceptable prices. Both with different batch codes than what I have tested before. Other store nearby has R50 and Midas+ at acceptable prices.
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
It´s been a while, but I still shoot with the 1613.
Have also shot 300m matches with old M27-66 7.62x53R rifle.
My latest gun purchase was a muzzleloading rifle: "Creedmoor Match" that I use in MLAIC events "Vetterli" and "Whitworth"
That Vetterli event is 13 rounds in 30min, standing position, 50m at issf pistol target. I cast my own bullets, but still it is 0.25€ every time the Creedmoor goes bang. So began to think that I could use that 1613 in training shooting from standing position during winter. No need for expensive ammo there, 0.08€ TopShots/CCI std´s will do just fine. But there is quite bit of weight difference...
Creedmoor is cal .45 and has enough recoil to bruise my shoulder if shot without a jacket; 290gr bullets and light (3.5kg) gun do that.
Just put the 1613 on a scale. It weights 6.5kg ready to shoot.
* 3kg for Stock & accessories (buttplate assembly weights 1.33kg)
* 3.5kg for barrel, receiver, bolt and sights
1613 could be made lighter. There´s no way to make it weight 3.5kg, but I´d be happy with weight of ca. 5.5kg ready to shoot. The barrel on 1613 is 70cm long, diameter 24mm. What would be shortest usable length with a bloop tube, maintaining accuracy for not so serious, clublevel prone shooting? 10cm of barrel weight ca. 330g.
Have also shot 300m matches with old M27-66 7.62x53R rifle.
My latest gun purchase was a muzzleloading rifle: "Creedmoor Match" that I use in MLAIC events "Vetterli" and "Whitworth"
That Vetterli event is 13 rounds in 30min, standing position, 50m at issf pistol target. I cast my own bullets, but still it is 0.25€ every time the Creedmoor goes bang. So began to think that I could use that 1613 in training shooting from standing position during winter. No need for expensive ammo there, 0.08€ TopShots/CCI std´s will do just fine. But there is quite bit of weight difference...
Creedmoor is cal .45 and has enough recoil to bruise my shoulder if shot without a jacket; 290gr bullets and light (3.5kg) gun do that.
Just put the 1613 on a scale. It weights 6.5kg ready to shoot.
* 3kg for Stock & accessories (buttplate assembly weights 1.33kg)
* 3.5kg for barrel, receiver, bolt and sights
1613 could be made lighter. There´s no way to make it weight 3.5kg, but I´d be happy with weight of ca. 5.5kg ready to shoot. The barrel on 1613 is 70cm long, diameter 24mm. What would be shortest usable length with a bloop tube, maintaining accuracy for not so serious, clublevel prone shooting? 10cm of barrel weight ca. 330g.
- Attachments
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- Long guns, M27-66 on top, Creedmoor Match muzzleloader middle and 1613 bottom
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
Hi Jiri,
The shortest I've seen on a match rifle is c. 50cm. I think the minimum length is more about balance than accuracy. Here in the UK hunters go for as short as 31cm (just over the legal limit of 30cm). But the muzzle of a barrel that short wouldn't clear your stock, and the balance would be horrible. Don't forget an aluminium extension tube will weigh 200-300g.
Another way to make the rifle lighter would be to swap the stock for a 1407, or similar. Even with a 70cm barrel, the rifle should weigh under 5.9kg, even with spacers to extend the butt.
The shortest I've seen on a match rifle is c. 50cm. I think the minimum length is more about balance than accuracy. Here in the UK hunters go for as short as 31cm (just over the legal limit of 30cm). But the muzzle of a barrel that short wouldn't clear your stock, and the balance would be horrible. Don't forget an aluminium extension tube will weigh 200-300g.
Another way to make the rifle lighter would be to swap the stock for a 1407, or similar. Even with a 70cm barrel, the rifle should weigh under 5.9kg, even with spacers to extend the butt.
Re: Buying old .22lr rifle
Hi Tim,
I think I´ll start weightloss project by shaving weight off the butt plate assembly and from the stock.
Cutting the barrel will be last step - if needed.
Edit: Buttplate assembly lost 145g.. Heavy duty parts there. Walnut stock weight 1.7kg, so there should be room for losing weight. Found one Anschutz .22 rifle with standard rifle stock, but store hasn´t yet answered if they are willing to sell the stock without barreled action.
I think I´ll start weightloss project by shaving weight off the butt plate assembly and from the stock.
Cutting the barrel will be last step - if needed.
Edit: Buttplate assembly lost 145g.. Heavy duty parts there. Walnut stock weight 1.7kg, so there should be room for losing weight. Found one Anschutz .22 rifle with standard rifle stock, but store hasn´t yet answered if they are willing to sell the stock without barreled action.