[quote="name withheld
JROTC WITH THEIR RETIRED INSTRUCTORS, AND IMMATURE (AND OFTEN OUT OF CONTROL) HIGH SCHOOL KIDS, SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN RUNNING RIFLE RANGES IN THE FIRST PLACE.
**ACTIVE DUTY INFANTRY CAPTAIN ROTC ASSISTANT PROFESSOR[/b][/quote]
This is BS. Kids (cross that out ... PEOPLE is correct here) are as wild as you let them be. I've known wild teens, college students (yes .... even/especially in the service academies), middle-agers, seniors.
I just got back to work from a meeting at a High School to chat with their MCJRTOC "Retired Instructor", and I can say he had them tight. The most polite kids you'd ever meet. I felt perfectly safe on their range ... they were all working together, and watching out for each other....
It's how you train them
suspension of JROTC shooting programs????
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
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Guest
That's as it should be. Unfortunately there are so-called coaches out there that don't have a clue, got a cushy position to wait out the next couple of years until retirement, have a good heart but can't teach, etc. Even some with NRA Instructor's ratings that don't know what they are doing & get by with a lot of bluff or someone else covering for them.
Sitting here thinking about the posts on this subject this morning...
I am sure the vast, vast majority of the JROTC shooting programs are run by excellent folks. It could be a lot like little league though. There are some very good coaches and some not so good coaches. Sitting here wondering why that is (in little league anyway) made me think it may be because there is no minimum requirement to be a little league coach. There is no pool of people working their way up a development ladder. In most cases they may become coaches by default...nobody else willing to do it.
Could this be how it is for JROTC?
Perhaps there should be some minimum requirement like being an NRA Certified Coach (beyond appointed).
Just a thought.
JLK
I am sure the vast, vast majority of the JROTC shooting programs are run by excellent folks. It could be a lot like little league though. There are some very good coaches and some not so good coaches. Sitting here wondering why that is (in little league anyway) made me think it may be because there is no minimum requirement to be a little league coach. There is no pool of people working their way up a development ladder. In most cases they may become coaches by default...nobody else willing to do it.
Could this be how it is for JROTC?
Perhaps there should be some minimum requirement like being an NRA Certified Coach (beyond appointed).
Just a thought.
JLK
No doubt to your points, but I could say that about any activity you want to think of. We could also come up with "bad/lazy egg" examples of active duty instructors/coaches.
The burr under my saddle was the generalization (which actually may be your point of view). But I think if you are honest you could apply the same arguments at ANY level.
I'm a new, "know-nothing" coach. I have not shot an air rifle since my freshman days in college (25 yrs ago!) But I want to learn, and I feel I'm fortunate to be able to have hooked up with folks across the country, and especially here in town, 2 miles form where I work, that are willing to help and give advice on the junior level.
Should there be better coaches/instructors? ... yes. Should there be more? ... yes. But like all endeavours in life it is a learning process. And the opportunities must be there to learn ... not only the activity itself, but the particular aspects of coaching that activity.
Should there be more accountability? ... dunno. I don't know what is there now. Like I said I'm in a learning phase here. I've taught and coached other sports, and my view is that the earlier you teach a kid, the better they learn ... in ANYTHING.
To try and teach marksmanship at a later age (18-20) seems counterproductive.
The burr under my saddle was the generalization (which actually may be your point of view). But I think if you are honest you could apply the same arguments at ANY level.
I'm a new, "know-nothing" coach. I have not shot an air rifle since my freshman days in college (25 yrs ago!) But I want to learn, and I feel I'm fortunate to be able to have hooked up with folks across the country, and especially here in town, 2 miles form where I work, that are willing to help and give advice on the junior level.
Should there be better coaches/instructors? ... yes. Should there be more? ... yes. But like all endeavours in life it is a learning process. And the opportunities must be there to learn ... not only the activity itself, but the particular aspects of coaching that activity.
Should there be more accountability? ... dunno. I don't know what is there now. Like I said I'm in a learning phase here. I've taught and coached other sports, and my view is that the earlier you teach a kid, the better they learn ... in ANYTHING.
To try and teach marksmanship at a later age (18-20) seems counterproductive.
JROTC
JH,
I am enjoying your comments on TT re: the JROTC situation.
About a year ago I had the oppourtunity to take over the shooting programs for a city parks & rec dept. Although I was a competivie pistol shooter for over 30 years I had -0- coaching experience and next to -0- rifle shooting experience. I have learned alot in the past year thanks to trying to attend as many educational oppourtunities as possible. I highly recommend the NRA Coaches School and any USAS clinic you can attend.
I hope you enjoy the experience as much as I am!
Regards,
JLK
I am enjoying your comments on TT re: the JROTC situation.
About a year ago I had the oppourtunity to take over the shooting programs for a city parks & rec dept. Although I was a competivie pistol shooter for over 30 years I had -0- coaching experience and next to -0- rifle shooting experience. I have learned alot in the past year thanks to trying to attend as many educational oppourtunities as possible. I highly recommend the NRA Coaches School and any USAS clinic you can attend.
I hope you enjoy the experience as much as I am!
Regards,
JLK
I have 3 daughters (9,11 & 13) that shot 4-H Archery last year (and will again this year as well). At the District championships they expressed great interest in the AR sporter event.
We have a great Novice & JR coach for AR, but no one wanted to put in the time for the seniors (14-18 yrs). I figure if my girls stay interested there is 10 years of opportunity for me to coach these kids.
Many on this board have offered advise on how to get started, and I have hooked up with the head of a great MCJROTC program here in New Mexico. He's got a Bob Foth pairs clinic set up, and my 13 year old and I are going. Two days off work, but worth it I think.
What I've found with 4-H and really any other activity for youth is that many parents treat it as baby sitting for their kids, rather than an activity to be involved in WITH them. So be it ... I've the time and the desire, as long as it's my discipline & rules I'm happy to help.
Joel Martin
We have a great Novice & JR coach for AR, but no one wanted to put in the time for the seniors (14-18 yrs). I figure if my girls stay interested there is 10 years of opportunity for me to coach these kids.
Many on this board have offered advise on how to get started, and I have hooked up with the head of a great MCJROTC program here in New Mexico. He's got a Bob Foth pairs clinic set up, and my 13 year old and I are going. Two days off work, but worth it I think.
What I've found with 4-H and really any other activity for youth is that many parents treat it as baby sitting for their kids, rather than an activity to be involved in WITH them. So be it ... I've the time and the desire, as long as it's my discipline & rules I'm happy to help.
Joel Martin
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Guest
You're right that plenty of people get pulled into the sport because we really need the willing hands to help us. The good ones continue their education, but the bad ones just talk big.jhmartin wrote: ...
Should there be more accountability? ... dunno. I don't know what is there now. Like I said I'm in a learning phase here. I've taught and coached other sports, and my view is that the earlier you teach a kid, the better they learn ... in ANYTHING.
There definitely needs to be more accountability (or seriousness) with coaching shooting because of the safety attitudes required with the equipment. I'd liken coaching shooting to be more like flight instructing than teaching a leisure sport or hobby, because the consequences of doing it wrong are so great.
No argument there.
Q: How many coaching clinics are being run (A: not enough)
Q: How to: 1) get more offered 2) get folks interested
(my feeling is on #2 .... people are interested, but not enough are offered)
Look at the NRA ... the basic courses (http://nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp) unless you live in NJ or Virginia there is almost nothing. My feeling here in NM is "give me a break" We've got Whittington Center expending all sorts of effort on Elk hunts .... there should be at least a basic course per month up there ther are ZIP offered in NM
Gotta get careful .... I'm crawling on the soapbox......
Q: How many coaching clinics are being run (A: not enough)
Q: How to: 1) get more offered 2) get folks interested
(my feeling is on #2 .... people are interested, but not enough are offered)
Look at the NRA ... the basic courses (http://nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp) unless you live in NJ or Virginia there is almost nothing. My feeling here in NM is "give me a break" We've got Whittington Center expending all sorts of effort on Elk hunts .... there should be at least a basic course per month up there ther are ZIP offered in NM
Gotta get careful .... I'm crawling on the soapbox......
The recent discussion seems to indicate that people believe that if you are a good, experienced, highly trained and motivated coach your shooting program will have less likelihood (even a zero likelihood) of having an accident. Because the accident rate in the shooting sports is so low there is no practical scientific or statistical way to prove whether this is true or not. The real bottom line (one that you can learn in any basic statistics class) is that there is no event that is a possible consequence of some action that has a probability of occurrence equal to zero. If something can possibly happen then eventually it probably will. The only way to have zero shooting accidents is to do no shooting. The same applies to any other human activity. All any of us can do is attempt to make all of our endeavors as safe a "reasonably" possible, and we should decide as a society or group what is "reasonable". If a few hundred thousand kids and adults have decided that shooting is something that they would like to do while fully understanding the small, but present, risk of serious injury or death then they should be allowed to participate in this activity. The same conclusion has been reached by those participating in football, hockey, rodeo, motorcross, baseball, basketball, race car driving, etc, etc, etc. Why should the shooting sports be any different?
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Guest
Ever Vigilant
Because if you are a good experienced highly motivated coach you will drill into your students the safety rules, and you will require that they obey at all times. Just like Rules of the Road, it all works out fine if everybody adheres to them. The bad "coaches" are the ones that are babysitting, BS-ing in the clubhouse and not on the firing line watching their students. They are allowing the incidents a chance to happen.
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Patrick Haynes
Coaching Clinics
Hi JH.
I've been away from TargetTalk for awhile and missed this thread. If you want a coaching clinic in your area, I would recommend that you contact HQ Moody (703-267-1401 or email hmoody@nrahq.org) and make a request. To quote their webpage: "The NRA is accepting requests to host smallbore and air rifle, pistol, high power rifle, shotgun and running target coach training schools, competition shooting clinics and coaching seminars."
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training ... oachSchool
The NRA Education and Training programs really are second to none. More importantly, they WANT to come out and help your program. If you sponsor an event and do the legwork, they'll arrange a coach instructor to come down at your expense.
Give HQ a call and let him know that you need a coach school.
Good luck!
Patrick Haynes
Advanced International Pistol Coach
(I just received my certification card in the mail and had to announce it somewhere! Yeah!)
I've been away from TargetTalk for awhile and missed this thread. If you want a coaching clinic in your area, I would recommend that you contact HQ Moody (703-267-1401 or email hmoody@nrahq.org) and make a request. To quote their webpage: "The NRA is accepting requests to host smallbore and air rifle, pistol, high power rifle, shotgun and running target coach training schools, competition shooting clinics and coaching seminars."
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training ... oachSchool
The NRA Education and Training programs really are second to none. More importantly, they WANT to come out and help your program. If you sponsor an event and do the legwork, they'll arrange a coach instructor to come down at your expense.
Give HQ a call and let him know that you need a coach school.
Good luck!
Patrick Haynes
Advanced International Pistol Coach
(I just received my certification card in the mail and had to announce it somewhere! Yeah!)
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Patrick
Thanks.
Thanks, John.JohnK wrote:Patrick,
Wow!
Congrats!
I am awaiting the results so that I may become an "appointed" coach.
Just a baby step up the ladder you have climbed.
Once again, congratulations!
JLK
The folks at the NRA Training department have been extremely helpful over the years, even to a Canadian pistol guy like me. *s* I'm sure that you'll enjoy the climb and bring back your knowledge and enthusiasm to your area.
What I have learned is that a bit of patience and perseverance has paid off alot. I figure out the system, make a personal contact and then follow up. The various organizations (NRA, USA Shooting, CMP, and the SFC/CSSA up in Canada) all genuinely want to help. Unfortunately, they have a ton of work for a small staff. Things may get over looked, but if you follow up (politely, of course), things move along.
I wish you all the best in your coaching endeavours.
Patrick
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Sawyer
to jhmartin
I must respectfully disagree with the notion that teaching marksmanship at age 18 is counterproductive. Certainly kids can master much of the shooting game before that, but they also have a much better attention span, degree of understanding, conceptualization skills, physical strength and coordination at 18 than they do at 13 or younger. That said, I'd rather start a kid at 10-11 (or even younger in some cases) and let them learn in a very relaxed manner at their own pace for the first couple of years and just let them have fun with it with no concern for match scores... then pick up the pace by 13-14.
I knew a guy who took it up at about age 28 and was our state 4-P smallbore champion just a few years later.
I also took on a girl at 14 (and she acted much older) who was bright, eager and coordinated. By 17 she had fired a 572 SB at 50 meters at the Rocky Mtn. Championships. Starting "later" can be very successful.
Larry Sawyer
I knew a guy who took it up at about age 28 and was our state 4-P smallbore champion just a few years later.
I also took on a girl at 14 (and she acted much older) who was bright, eager and coordinated. By 17 she had fired a 572 SB at 50 meters at the Rocky Mtn. Championships. Starting "later" can be very successful.
Larry Sawyer
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Kelly
Re: to jhmartin
I would expand the statement a bit to the question of what is the right age. The best answer is "When they are ready." Nuff said.
Sawyer wrote:I must respectfully disagree with the notion that teaching marksmanship at age 18 is counterproductive. Certainly kids can master much of the shooting game before that, but they also have a much better attention span, degree of understanding, conceptualization skills, physical strength and coordination at 18 than they do at 13 or younger. That said, I'd rather start a kid at 10-11 (or even younger in some cases) and let them learn in a very relaxed manner at their own pace for the first couple of years and just let them have fun with it with no concern for match scores... then pick up the pace by 13-14.
I knew a guy who took it up at about age 28 and was our state 4-P smallbore champion just a few years later.
I also took on a girl at 14 (and she acted much older) who was bright, eager and coordinated. By 17 she had fired a 572 SB at 50 meters at the Rocky Mtn. Championships. Starting "later" can be very successful.
Larry Sawyer
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Re: to jhmartin
HiKelly wrote:I would expand the statement a bit to the question of what is the right age. The best answer is "When they are ready." Nuff said.
Larry Sawyer
From personal Experience you have to get your kids shooting before high school. My son won't shoot at all, I didn't start him on Shotgun until he was big enough to handle a 12 gauge, BIG MISTAKE.
Mike
Wichita KS
I'm sorry ... I did not mean to imply that starting out at at a later age was not worth the time.
In my mind it is not just the physical skills, but the desire as well. And maybe the desire part is the most important. If one desires to pick up at new skill at any age, if the desire is there ... for the most part ... it is possible acquire and do well at that skill.
My feeling on the "counterproductive" statement has as much to do with the way society today informs people what is acceptable and what is not. I feel that if a parent, instructor, or coach can develop a skill in a kid at an early age, the child will ... for the most part ... continue with that skill throughout their lifetime.
Society today, what the kids see on tv/movies, again, for the most part, teaches kids to be afraid of firearms. I have folks I work with (as I'm sure you do too), that are flabbergasted that I own some .... well, OK, many. They are abhorred that my 9 year old daughter loves to shoot ... rifle, shotguns, bows. That my older daughters know as well, and are good at those skills, gives me some peace in knowing that they have a very good sense of self worth and are not likely to take any crap from guys that may be interested in them.
If we let the rest of society teach value to the kids, by 18, they will have the same attitudes as these other terrified people ... again, for the most part.
Starting them young, teaching them the basics with correctly sized equipment will last them their lifetimes ... maybe even give them another reason to get together yearly as they go thru their lives.
Joel martin
In my mind it is not just the physical skills, but the desire as well. And maybe the desire part is the most important. If one desires to pick up at new skill at any age, if the desire is there ... for the most part ... it is possible acquire and do well at that skill.
My feeling on the "counterproductive" statement has as much to do with the way society today informs people what is acceptable and what is not. I feel that if a parent, instructor, or coach can develop a skill in a kid at an early age, the child will ... for the most part ... continue with that skill throughout their lifetime.
Society today, what the kids see on tv/movies, again, for the most part, teaches kids to be afraid of firearms. I have folks I work with (as I'm sure you do too), that are flabbergasted that I own some .... well, OK, many. They are abhorred that my 9 year old daughter loves to shoot ... rifle, shotguns, bows. That my older daughters know as well, and are good at those skills, gives me some peace in knowing that they have a very good sense of self worth and are not likely to take any crap from guys that may be interested in them.
If we let the rest of society teach value to the kids, by 18, they will have the same attitudes as these other terrified people ... again, for the most part.
Starting them young, teaching them the basics with correctly sized equipment will last them their lifetimes ... maybe even give them another reason to get together yearly as they go thru their lives.
Joel martin
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Guest
Hey everyone,
I just wanted to say that JROTC marksmanship in air rifle only has been started up again. They have discontinued the .22 program. I'm trying to find the official new rules for this program. I took a safety test and there are still some blanks and things that don't follow how a match is run, say for NRA or USA programs. As far as I know there is no such thing as a prep period where you can handle rifles in position.
Another thing, my dad shot at the same high school that i do now under AJROTC command in the '70s. I know this program started before this and that in all these years there has never been a shooting injury.
I just wanted to say that JROTC marksmanship in air rifle only has been started up again. They have discontinued the .22 program. I'm trying to find the official new rules for this program. I took a safety test and there are still some blanks and things that don't follow how a match is run, say for NRA or USA programs. As far as I know there is no such thing as a prep period where you can handle rifles in position.
Another thing, my dad shot at the same high school that i do now under AJROTC command in the '70s. I know this program started before this and that in all these years there has never been a shooting injury.
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GA Guest
Prep Period
2004 -2006 National Standard Three-Position Air Rifle Rules
7.5 (page 26)
"Competitors may handle their rifles, dry fire, and do holding and aiming exercises on the firing line during the preperation period."
Been that way as long as I can remember, but then again, I'm only 47 years old...
When would you have them check NPA, position, etc...?
Roy McClain
Spalding County Shooting Sports
4H Project S.A.F.E. Coach / Volunteer
(678) 772-8185 cell / (770) 412-6604 home
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius
7.5 (page 26)
"Competitors may handle their rifles, dry fire, and do holding and aiming exercises on the firing line during the preperation period."
Been that way as long as I can remember, but then again, I'm only 47 years old...
When would you have them check NPA, position, etc...?
Roy McClain
Spalding County Shooting Sports
4H Project S.A.F.E. Coach / Volunteer
(678) 772-8185 cell / (770) 412-6604 home
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius