TargetTalk

It's not about BMW cars or what score someone has shot.

It's about pilkguns not allowing people to buy a 'STANDARD' length LP10!

nick marshall wrote:It's about pilkguns not allowing people to buy a 'STANDARD' length LP10!

No, not exactly. It's about Pilkguns being unwilling to sell a standard length LP10 unless certain conditions are met. Pilkguns is not the sole distributor in the US and Pilkguns is not blocking anyone from obtaining a standard LP10. Scott is exercising his judgement which he clearly has a right to do.

How he came to this judgement is not yet known.Maybe he is imperiously superimposing his judgement on others (which seems highly unlikely) or he has had enough whingeing from noobie purchasers of the standard LP10 that he doesn't want to mess with it anymore. Or maybe something else - unless he decides to offer his rationale, we just do not know.

Personally, I would think that requiring a prospective purchaser to speak with someone at Pilkguns before ordering a particular specialized gun makes more sense and it is a policy I've seen at a couple of other outlets. But it is not my business (literally) and not my call.

Roger

nick marshall wrote:It's about pilkguns not allowing people to buy a 'STANDARD' length LP10!

No, it's about pilkguns not allowing people to buy a 'STANDARD' length LP10 FROM THEM.

We've already read that at least one other dealer has the standard length guns in stock.

David Levene wrote:

nick marshall wrote:It's about pilkguns not allowing people to buy a 'STANDARD' length LP10!

No, it's about pilkguns not allowing people to buy a 'STANDARD' length LP10 FROM THEM.

We've already read that at least one other dealer has the standard length guns in stock.

Pardon me.
FROM THEM!
didn't think I needed to spell everything out!

We are all aware who we are talking about.

Except maybe Vince. He still thinks there is car is involved. ;0)

nick marshall wrote: Pardon me.
FROM THEM!
didn't think I needed to spell everything out!

Those two words make such a big difference. Pilkingtons aren't stopping anyone from buying a standard LP10, so why are some people getting so upset?

Perhaps we all can stop debating and just ask Scott himself, from the horse mouth.

conradin wrote:Perhaps we all can stop debating and just ask Scott himself, from the horse mouth.

The debate will NOT stop with an explanation from Scott no matter how good it is. I believe even if it had been recommended to him by the best AP coach in the world "that new shooters would make better progress if they started with a compact version", most of the upset people posting about this will still be upset because Scott won't sell them what they want.

Simple want a standard, buy it elsewhere! Scott has his reasons and he has the right to put performance qualifications on the purchase.

Well I am back from Camp Perry’s Pistol phase where once again I have had numerous conversations and observations that confirm the rightness of my decision on this matter. Here are three random thoughts, and then I will get to the heart of the matter. .

First, I had wondered when or if this discussion would ever show up on Target Talk.

Second, isn’t it so true of human nature, that people would actually rather get on the internet and complain, rather than phone or email the individual that they have a perceived problem with. All the original poster* had to do was contact us and his problem would have been solved. We tell people all the time that if they truly want a long gun despite our advice, that they can buy the long one from Champions Choice, who is our largest legitimate retailer. Yes I know I am not making as much money on the sale, but I am doing what I believe is best for the sport. Of course, there are grey market dealers as well, most notably in Texas. *Even more curious is this individual lives an hour’s drive away from our store, and chooses to come on the internet and complain, rather driving up and trying out various pistols and grips to better understand the issue. We have people travel as much as 12 hours to come here and get first hand exposure to their options.


Third, there seems to be some posting who are not aware of the different options we do offer to buy a long gun.

And now, onto the why of the story.

Why did I implement this policy? I have been in this business some 17 years now. I have attended numerous junior championships, Numerous adults championships at US and international levels, and ran or attended events at cross disciplines such Bullseye or Practical Pistol. This particular concept has been three years on the drawing board with discussions of it with various, REAL coaches over that time ( and yes, discussed with Steyr for those who have questioned it).

My primary reason for implementing it is that I am sick and tired of seeing some new individual come into the sport that I love, take up hours of our valuable time, buy all the necessary gear, and six months or a year later, see that same individual selling all their gear, because they are lousy at it. Many of those new comers, came from a shooting background already, most of them are Bullseye competitors. And numerous discussions over the years point to the longer barrel being the culprit. After much thought and discussion with knowledgeable individuals, I decided it was worth a try.

Someone mentioned Don Nygord’s World Championship win. That is a very solid part of my conclusion. Don was a very experienced shooter at the time. Far better than most of us ever will be. Yet he chose to switch from the long barrel Model 65 to a short version, and become the world champion with the short barreled Mark II. That should cause a lot of you naysayers to sit back and think.

The original poster mentioned he wanted to give this pistol to his grandson? WHY ON EARTH would anyone want to give someone the wrong equipment? Much less some you cared about like a grandchild? I would want to get them the best equipment for their sport.

Strangely enough, I don’t think anyone has mentioned my back up offer. I am putting my money where my beliefs are. If you think you can prove me wrong, and can do it, then I am willing to GIVE YOU $2400 worth of pistol. That is money straight out of my pocket and into yours if I am wrong. Like any new concept, there will be some tweaking of it as time goes by. I have already been pushed to drop the orginal posted limit from 560 to 555. If someone has a more credible way to assess skill, then I am willing to listen.

Am I loosing some sales and thus some money along the way? Yes I am sure I am, but as I have said, I send them to Champions Choice where they can get what they want, and I still make a few dollars. But I would rather loose a few dollars on a few sales and see the sport grow overall with people starting out with the best options for their needs. I want my customers to stay in the sport and excel, to the best of their abilities. That’s what’s important for me.

As I said in another forum, I may want to buy a long LP10 to hang over my fireplace. I'm sure Steyr doesn't care and would be happy to sell me one for whatever purpose. What do you think people would say if Ford would only sell pickup trucks to people who only use them for business and carry more than 500 pounds?

You can buy a long one from Champions Choice or International Shooters Service. I hope Pilkington builds up a barn full of them.

I am air pistol shooter with match score of 574. saying my personal experience is quite difficult for beginners to master the gun lp10 long. I was frustrated at first when using this shot. It's easier for me to shoot using FWB or Morini. I'm planning on buying Morini as my second gun.

friends in my club who have short LP2. I've borrowed and it was easier to shoot using a short barrel gun. Unfortunately LP2 does not have a shock absorber. In the past I think to buy lp10 lp10 short because of frustration with my long gun and blame it. But after trying Morini I better buy a Morini. With steyr lp10 long need more than 3 year for me reach score 560.

I see a new co-shooter after saw me shoot good with steyr then buy lp10 long feel frustrated on how to operate the weapon. Even they shoot better with their old weapons like FWB p40

For the shooter who intends to pro steyr lp10 is a good choice. Because you do intend to invest the time and money to practice using it. For short lp10 amateur shooters better because it is easier operate. Similar standard pistol. Lp10 long like formula one. Pro driver can handle it for maximum score. Short barrel like ferrari , anyone can speed drive using it.

When I first started shooting 22 cal bullseye, I couldn't hit anything. It took me 3years to score consistently in the 270s. Persistence paid off, and I eventually shot in the high 280s and 290s. I could have given up. I'm 74 and can still do the same thing. One out of 10 new shooters will be successful, but I would not want to discourage any of them. Not making a certain pistol availabe to them sounds elitist to me.

pilkguns wrote: Strangely enough, I don’t think anyone has mentioned my back up offer. I am putting my money where my beliefs are. If you think you can prove me wrong, and can do it, then I am willing to GIVE YOU $2400 worth of pistol.

Lemme get this straight:

All I have to do is buy a short LP10 from you, shoot a 555, then I get a free LP10 long?

What's your return policy, again? 'Cause I could argue that a gun with 58 pellets down the barrel is LNIB. :D

And what's the status on repeats? Can I get a free LP10 long for every 555+ I shoot?

This could be the most lucrative thread in the history of TargetTalk.

I GOTS TO KNOW, MAN!

john bickar wrote:And what's the status on repeats? Can I get a free LP10 long for every 555+ I shoot?

This could be the most lucrative thread in the history of TargetTalk.

I GOTS TO KNOW, MAN!

John, as I understood, the deal is for the ones who are just starting out.... Clearly, you are not one of them...

It would be great not to have to guess what the deal is about. Per Pilkington's offer a purchase of an LP "short" now becomes a contract whose details are important.

So, Scott, what are
1) the initial qualifications of a buyer that would make him/her eligible for a free gun? At what level of experience in air pistol/other shooting disciplines will the line be drawn? (One of the top air pistol shooters in the world, Joao Costa reportedly began shooting air only after becoming a great free pistol shooter.)
2) what are the matches that would be accepted for the qualification purposes for an adult civilian non-collegiate shooter? Only National Championships? How about NRA sectionals? Desert Midwinter? State matches? Logistics of traveling to Fort Benning, clearly unrelated to shooting prowess, could be too much for many adult shooters with no aspirations to make Olympics or the National team (which one couldn't make with 555 or 560, anyway).

john bickar wrote:And what's the status on repeats? Can I get a free LP10 long for every 555+ I shoot?

This could be the most lucrative thread in the history of TargetTalk.

I GOTS TO KNOW, MAN!

You will be one of those gentleman in the casino being escorted to leave with some goodies because you are "have too much luck".

pilkguns wrote:My primary reason for implementing it is that I am sick and tired of seeing some new individual come into the sport that I love, take up hours of our valuable time, buy all the necessary gear, and six months or a year later, see that same individual selling all their gear, because they are lousy at it. Many of those new comers, came from a shooting background already, most of them are Bullseye competitors. And numerous discussions over the years point to the longer barrel being the culprit. After much thought and discussion with knowledgeable individuals, I decided it was worth a try.

It comes across as a little heavy handed and authoritarian.

What is really the issue?
The long barrel->Long dwell time of the pellet?
Long sight radius is hard to use as its too twitchy?
Too much weight up front causing fatigue?

I'm going to chip in for this one in light of Scott chipping in with some of my own evidence to support this policy.



I started with a short barrel, short sight radius Morini. After 2 years I switched to the long barrel one because I felt the greater mass up front created an inertial resistance to my failings. If my shooting was perfect I doubt there would be any great change to my scores - probably a few more marginal 10s due to increased cone of possible shot.

At my club (Whangarei, NZ) we start kids as young as 12 to shoot - each year there is a national competition, we take the kids from no knowledge to National Junior Match. Usually about 30-40 kids a year, I suppose.

The gun we use? Morini short barrel - with short sight radius.

The short sight radius is more tolerant of someone learning to steady the gun in my view. It has a larger cone of acceptable sight picture - less precise, but not less precise than an incorrectly aligned long sight picture.
It is also lighter, light enough for a puny 12 year old to lift.

It is also interesting to note that no current top shooters shoot short Air Pistols. If the skills are there to take advantage of the increased precision offered by the sight radius it is a great help; if not, a great hindrance. I have shot a long LP10 and an extended sight radius long barrel Morini and when the shots are on, man are they on - but I have a bit of experience now.

As a thought experiment I wonder what the result would be if a wheel weight or three was added to the nose of a Morini Short to Balance like a Morini Long. I might have to try that at a later date.

Sad to see this hacked back and forth without a lot of civility in some cases. OP hasn't been back, either.

I see this as incredibly generous offer - work hard and get more suitable gear as a reward.

The discussion about the travel time of the pellet within the barrel is very old (and if differences in barrel length matter the same). It's in the same bag of theories than the "ideal" muzzle velocity, if 130 m/s is better than 165 m/s. Or if a shorter sighting line is better for beginners, because they don't see their hand-vibrations so clearly (which does not mean that they have vanished).

Just grab your calculator and find your own solution, it isn't so difficult with a given barrel length, muzzle vel - and the knowledge about the shortest possible reaction time of the human body (estimated is here 100 ms).

And then add the time, that a mechanism (or an electronic trigger) needs to transfer the pull of the trigger to the release of the valve or spring or whatever - which is equal or even longer than the travel time.

But it's good stuff for lengthy discussions among shooters all over the world...

By the way: let me apologize for forgetting the late Don Nygord as US World Champion 1981 with the air pistol. I somehow forgot that the World Championships in AP started well (in 1970) before its olympic career (since 1988).

I would certainly pick a short air pistol, and recommend one to anyone else unless they are really at the top level.