TargetTalk

I don't use the crappy CL, but I DO use that great 40 Summicron on my M6. I like it as much as the DR Summicron on M2 and the Summitar on my IIIC. Different strokes and all that.

Sometimes the old stuff is the best. I personally wouldn't own an IZH, but some here are wetting themselves over it. I've owned a couple of K58s, but I'm currently using a FWB100 (and a STeyr LP1). All good!

Hi Rover,
Hey! I use an FWB mod 100 and an LP1-C (CO2) also. However, instead
of that Leica stuff, I use FSU rangefinders with excellent Industars,
Helios and Jupiters. My favorite FSU rangefinders are my Zorki 3M, Fed 2 and Kiev 4A. he he....
If we are discussing old stuff, I really like shooting my Voigtlander RF Bessa 6x9 folder.

Tony

zuckerman wrote:there was a guy at the nationals this year with an Izzy.....I did not see his name/score...

547 + 545

networkguy3 wrote:

Rover wrote:
You could try here: http://pardiniguns.com/ (US distributor).

Remember, you only need one.

I put out a want add for a K58 / K60 and did not get any bites on it. Another person did the same thing, but obviously I don't know how their quest went. I thought I'd try putting a want ad out every few months and see what turned up. I've pretty well decided to buy a Izzy in the meantime.

I have spoken to the guy that owns PardiniGuns regarding parts for my SP. He is a very nice fellow. I had not thought of asking him if he knew where one might be available. I'll give it a try and see what happens.

Well I asked at PardiniGuns and he said the K58 is basically a museum piece at this point, and he did not know where I could find one. The guy suggested I try GunBroker. (I've already been there. . . . )

I've got a pair of FWB 103 pistols I shoot for all the reasons listed above. One is the older, dark blue, model with the three-piece grip and the other is the newer, light blue, one-piece grip version. The latter was one of the final 103 APs shipped to the States before FWB stopped production of the SSP line.

They are lightweight (especially when removing the cocking lever), self-contained, and smooth-shooting. I can find no fault in them.

I understand that FWB 103s are some of the most consistent (velocity-wise) pistols that have ever been on the market--even better than many of the latest PCP offerings. Something to think about.

I'm not so old or feeble that cocking 70 times (for sighters and warm-ups) for a match is any kind of problem...yet. I recognize that might become an issue at some point.

I wouldn't ever consider selling them. I see FWB SSPs for sale periodically, though; I believe they're much more available than the K58 or K60. More expensive, though.

Go searching for an FWB 100-series; you won't regret it!!

Networkguy3,

I'd put an ad here at least once a week. A lot of people are not "regulars" on here. Use the other airgun sites, too. Did you try the guys I told you to contact?

You have to be a little aggressive. You just need one hit.

I understand that FWB 103s are some of the most consistent (velocity-wise) pistols that have ever been on the market--even better than many of the latest PCP offerings. Something to think about.

I think that's pretty much hogwash. Yes, the scuba guns need e few shots to settle in after the cylinder is screwed on. Those shots are certainly going to be sighters anyway. The last time I did an extensive chrony test it was with a Benelli Kite. I shot 55 pellets. After the first 5 which had and extreme spread of about 15 fps if I recall, the remaining 50 were all in the 510 fps range with an E.S. of 5 or 6. I can't believe other makers can't and don't do as well.

william wrote:

I understand that FWB 103s are some of the most consistent (velocity-wise) pistols that have ever been on the market--even better than many of the latest PCP offerings. Something to think about.

I think that's pretty much hogwash. Yes, the scuba guns need e few shots to settle in after the cylinder is screwed on. Those shots are certainly going to be sighters anyway. The last time I did an extensive chrony test it was with a Benelli Kite. I shot 55 pellets. After the first 5 which had and extreme spread of about 15 fps if I recall, the remaining 50 were all in the 510 fps range with an E.S. of 5 or 6. I can't believe other makers can't and don't do as well.

I recall reading a head-to-head test of a number of APs a couple of years ago that had a table of shot velocities, standard deviations, extreme spreads, etc. for each gun tested. The standard velocities and extreme spreads of the pistols tested were all over the board. I remember being quite surprised at the time that some of the more popular PCP models were not the most consistent.

The particular FWB 103 tested gave the lowest extreme spreads and standard deviations of all the APs in the test, though I can't remember exactly what these values were.

Now that I try and search for the write-up, I cannot find the results I'd like to cite. I do not remember if it was on this board or somewhere else. This lack of documentation vexes me.

If I can't put up, I suppose I'll have to shut up.

Either that or I'll have to dig out the old red Shooting Chrony in the basement and run a couple of series through my 103s and see what the numbers say.

2 more bits of probably useless information. The narrowest extreme spread was achieved with JSB heavy (yellow label) pellets. Those pellets have never given me the best performance in actual shooting. Both JSB light (green) and H&N Finale Match have always given me smaller groups and higher scores offhand, and both of them had a significantly wider E.S. in the test. Not as scientific as a chrony but I don't go to a PTO and try to have the smallest extreme spread. Can you imagine the conversations over the scoring table: "This was a pretty disappointing outing." "Yeah, but your velocities were REALLY consistent."

About a year ago I put an ad on Craigslist for a 46m, I am in Vancouver Canada. Quite a while after my ad had expired I was contacted by
someone out of the blue who had seen my ad, his buddy had a FWB 100.
After a lot of e-mails and phone calls I got it for $400, it was brand new condition in the original box with all the tools & decals & manual & grease.
It also came with 10 tins of pellets.
Try Craigslist, it worked for me, I am very happy with this gun.

Rover wrote:Networkguy3,

I'd put an ad here at least once a week. A lot of people are not "regulars" on here. Use the other airgun sites, too. Did you try the guys I told you to contact?

You have to be a little aggressive. You just need one hit.

Yes, I tried your suggestions, and will put up a WTB ad here frequenty. I'll also bother the people on Yellow Forum Classifieds, and American Airguns. Thanks for the suggestions. I know it only takes one hit. I looked for about 3 months multiple times per day and found a Pardini SP New at a great price.

Could someone please explain to a newbie about "grip angle" of 10m pistols vs a traditional pistol grip? Aren't all pistols supposed to shoot straight ahead at the target you aim for...? Explain it to me lie I'm six years old. Thanks.

toddinjax wrote:Could someone please explain to a newbie about "grip angle" of 10m pistols vs a traditional pistol grip? Aren't all pistols supposed to shoot straight ahead at the target you aim for...? Explain it to me lie I'm six years old. Thanks.

That would sort of depend on which grip angle you meant. There are three; rake, cant, and rotational (there's probably a better term for 'rotational' but I'm rather new at this). Rake is the angle of the grip and therefore the hand on the vertical axis, fore/aft. Rake determines how 'locked' your wrist will be with the barrel pointed at the constant target height, with more rake raising your elbow higher, pulling your pinkie finger closer to your wrist. Too far and you'll experience pain from prolonged use. Not far enough and you'll likely see too much vertical spread of your groups on the target. With my home-made grip for my 46m I adjust rake via a mechanism I developed, which I typically have set at about 4.5degrees further back than the stock Baikal grip.

Cant is the angle of the grip from side to side, which is adjusted on a custom basis again to suit peculiarities of individual shooters. It comes down to what feels 'natural' when the sights are perfectly horizontal. If you're finding that you typically tilt the sights to one side, you could probably use at least a small cant adjustment. Not a lot of older guns offer this, but many of the newer models do. On my grip I opted not to make this adjustable, as it's for me not for generic use, and so I just carved in about 2 degrees of cant to the left, bringing the bottom of my hand further under the pistol than stock.

Rotation is as it sounds; the grip of some pistols can be rotated such that any tendency to have the barrel wander left, or right, depending on the user, can be compensated out in the adjustment. On mine I rotated a bit over 1 degree for a bit of a tendency to aim to the left, the barrel not quite wanting to line up with my eye when I was otherwise comfortable.

An expert grip maker should take all these into account in examining the way a shooter holds their pistol. Of course this is not possible, or at least unlikely via a mail order or store bought pistol grip, hence the user-adjustable features on some pistols.

Oh yes, and as compared to 'traditional' pistol grips... a Colt 45 you mean? a 1911? The traditional firearm grips tend to have rather less rake than an AP. That's so that the force of recoil can be better absorbed by the wrist and forearm, rather than so directly transmitting the force up into the arm. With an AP recoil isn't really an issue, to greater wrist lock can be sought in aid of better stability without too much risk of serious repetitive use injuries.

sorry to resurrect this...

it;s been 8 years and the only SSP being sold/produced is still only the IZH 46M.

what would be better to buy now: a brand new IZH or a 10-15 years old FWB 103?

I would MUCH rather have an old FWB103 than a 46M. Even if it didn't work, it could be fixed with a few O-rings and you'd be shooting top-of-the-line.

I'm currently using an old Walther LPM1 and am delighted with it. I like it better than the FWB100 I used to own. A Pardini K58 would probably be cheaper than the ones I mentioned. I like the K58 a lot.

The difference between my 777 and 717 is the grips and sights. Andrew Berryhill can fix the first and the 717 sigbts respond well to a bit of shimming and flat black sharpie. The trigger at its minimum setting is actually pretty good. Its only downer is that its lock time is a bit longer than a lcp gun because its velocith is slower, so a rock steady hold pays dividends. I bet youd be all in under 350 bucks and it will shoot exceptionally well......

My Mom gave my brother (a police shooting instructor) a 717 for Xmas one year. He used it to shoot running mice in his hunting cabin.

Running mice with a 717 should be an Olympic Venue....but we get breakdancing instead. society is truly doomed.

Rover wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:38 pm I would MUCH rather have an old FWB103 than a 46M. Even if it didn't work, it could be fixed with a few O-rings and you'd be shooting top-of-the-line.

I'm currently using an old Walther LPM1 and am delighted with it. I like it better than the FWB100 I used to own. A Pardini K58 would probably be cheaper than the ones I mentioned. I like the K58 a lot.

there is a pardini k58 for sale for 350 euro. but only in italy :(
https://www.armiusate.it/armi-ad-aria-c ... 77_i493670

Rover wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:38 pm I would MUCH rather have an old FWB103 than a 46M. Even if it didn't work, it could be fixed with a few O-rings and you'd be shooting top-of-the-line.

I'm currently using an old Walther LPM1 and am delighted with it. I like it better than the FWB100 I used to own. A Pardini K58 would probably be cheaper than the ones I mentioned. I like the K58 a lot.

what exactly is the advantage of the FWB 100/102/103 over the 46M..beside weight and grip? (weight i can live with. grip i can get a proper one from Rink)
is the trigger better? is the sight better? is more accurate?