TargetTalk

I too would like to see all, or as many as possible, reports concerning the failures of the compressed air cylinders associated with sporting arms. At what age are they failing? What types of failures are there: internal damage (i.e. corrosion), external damage (nicks, dents, chemical damage), material faults (improper alloy), or manufacturing (stress from forming/threading). Of course, the final cause (something a little harder to detect): improper handling at the owner/operator level (heat stress, stress from rapid fill and overfill, etc.) If someone purchased an airgun and the cylinders have only 30-50 fill cycles over the course of a few years, and then those cylinders sit idle until year ten, the owner now has to know that these cylinders are worthless from match and resale perspective.

The other thing about this that bugs me is this: Compressed gas cylinders are nothing new. Why did the orginal lot of CA guns not deal with this issue and take the most cautious course on this? I am certain that the engineers that designed these were familiar with the tenets of high pressure vessel design and manufacture. I would imagine it was beacuse the early CA guns had fixed cylinders- like the Hammerli 480 and CM162. Maybe they believed that these weapons would not be viable out to a certain number of fill cycles. Is this not called planned obsolescence? By the way, you can either upgrade those (good luck with the Hammerli and I hope you have some cash for the Morini) or chunk them in the ash can.

It looks like the best bet is to buy a gun with one cylinder and use it for ten years. When the cylinder matures, use it (with care-i.e. 80% fill) for practice and buy a new cylinder for matches. Of course, there is the risk that your model will be discontinued and no longer supported in 10 years, so you will be forced to purchase another gun, but at least you saved $150-$175 on the front end. I'm sure every current retailer would be more than willing to sell you a CA gun with only one cylinder, and discount the price for the unpurchased cylinder, right? Now more than ever, it makes no sense to purchase a CA gun with 2 cylinders; you can't fly with the spare and it will only be an extra $175 that you will be forced to throw away in 10 years.

toznerd

I have SCUBA tanks that I use regularly that are over 45 years old. If the tank is check and passes why chuck it? Anything can last if maintained correctly

Guest1 wrote:I have SCUBA tanks that I use regularly that are over 45 years old. If the tank is check and passes why chuck it? Anything can last if maintained correctly

The cylinders can and probably would last many years over the 10yrs, I think it's a case of when it's tested it would cost over half the price of a new one to do and who's going to do it.The manufacturers are just covering their backs, but as someone has said I think the manufacturers should give a discount on a new one when you hand the old one in after the 10yrs, even if it's not a current model, this is the only way they are going to get the old ones taken out of the system, if your not shooting at matches or clubs were the cylinders are going to be checked, there's going to be many potential 'dangerous' cylinders out there. Colin

Is it any wonder that there is confusion.

Looking at Steyr pistol manuals:-

LP5P & LP10 - no mention of changing cylinders

LP2 & LP50 - return cylinder to the manufacturer for inspection after 10 years

LPS - dispose of cylinder after 10 years

FWIW my Morini cylinders have "20 Year max." silk screened along with serial number, 2900 psi max, etc on them.

My Pardini Co2 cylinders say Made in Italy - Co2 - have the tare weight and state 250 bar. No date is displayed. A check of the manual shows no information regarding the life of the cylinders nor any mention of inspections.

The cylinder's limit of 250 bar is quite reassuring, as Co2 does not, in real world temperatures, ever approach that pressure. Typical pressure is around 900 psi or about 62 bar.

This is much like ASME pressure vessel code; define and assess the problem (if any) and respond with scientifically based plans.

If the vessel will burst, it is more likely during fill, not use.

There is a corrosion issue especially if you are a hand pumper; moisture condenses in the compressed gas and enters the cylinder. Scuba tank users should not have this issue, nor the corrosion. If you have a hand pump, pay attention to this issue.

CO2 has a much lower saturation pressure relative to the design limit of the cylinder than air or scuba guns.

Smaller diameter vessels have lower stresses ( stress = pressure x radius/ thickness) or 2x thickness depending on hoop or longitudinal stress. Hoop stress is the larger; why your hot dog splits down the middle. Stress risers, nicks and scratches should have been figured into the design unless they just didnt think at all b/c it is a small vessel of limited energy potential.

I see a lot of emotional responses rather that scientific basis. For hysteria, one could say' replace your shotgun/rifle or pistol barrel every 10 years; it holds 14, 25 or 50,000 psi". An excellent gun ban strategy.

Compare this also to the change in rules for propane cylinders; they won't let you fill perfectly good cylinders and yet the replacements to be safer, leak and are of worse quality. Saturation pressure of propane is very low and the problems AFAIK, negligible yet "they" want to sell bottles.

One manufacturers problems should not paint us all with the same brush!

So what is the extent of the problem that requires such a draconian response?

best regards

Well said Bruce. I repaired and built pressure vessles my whole career, I'm retired now.
The small diameter vessles should last forever IF NOT DEFECTIVE. And of course they are filled correctly. If they are defective they could let loose anytime from day 1.

Which opens another can of worms.... the schools/clubs might not have the money or know to replace the cylinders. How about the coach/volunteers? If a defective cylinder lets loose after the ten years the manufactor cleverly is off the hook, the coach/volunteers might be liable.

I wonder how many coaches know how old each cylinder is in the clubs they are helping out.

Just another reason if you are a club officer to have an unbrella insurance policy.

Richard H wrote:Scuba tanks and cylinders for rifles and pistol although they serve the same function are vastly different. For starters pistol and rifle cylinders are machined from solid aluminum billets which gives that much great structural integrity than those of scuba tanks.

I know of no one that Hydrostatically tests pistol?rifle cylinders. Considering the cost the hydrostatic test alone, then putting the cylinder back together and replacing seals, it would approach the cost of a new cylinder.

Can anyone point me to anywhere in a manual where it says 10 years? I have three Steyrs and I can find anywhere where it says to discard cylinders after ten years. I would think this is highly subjective as it would really not take into any consideration the usage, I have a hard time believing that someone who shoots once a week and someone who shoots everyday would stress a cylinder to the same level.

There is a new rule published by the Steyr cylinder manufcaturer: http://www.steyr-sportwaffen.at/content ... uschen.pdf

Its in german, no information on the english website of Steyr.

Short translation:
- Aluminium cylinder, PCP and CO2, can be used only for ten years starting from the maunfacturing date stamped on the cylinder. They cannot be re-tested. At the end of the ten years duration, they cannot used anymore and must be emptied.
- Steel cylinder, PCP and CO2, can also be used ten years starting at the stamped manufacturing date. They can be re-tested one time for a ten year extension of the usage duration (=> total duration of use = 20 years). The test is done at the manufacturer site and costs 60Euros for PCP and 40Euros for CO2... + shipment ro Germany of course.

The new cylinder have also a usage limit date stamped on it together with the manufacturing date,

Last hint: since a very long time, all Steyr pistols are delivered with alumiunium cylinder. In fact to my knowledge, Steyr PCP pistols where always delivered with aluminium cylinder, steel PCP cylinders do not exist. Only CO2 steel cylinder exists.

As far as I know, only Walther has steel cylinder yet (300bar cylinders).

I think as shooters we need to contact our suppliers and manufacturers to ask them to inititiate a testing protocol. As other posters have mentioned, these cylinders are probably in reality perfectly safe. Now it may be great for a cylinder maker to want to sell us all new ones after 10 years, but I'm extrememly reluctant to throw away good gear, never mind the cost of replacing them !

Rob.

It is clear that such a statement is not acceptable.

The manufacturers took just the easiest solution for them:
- they do not want to know when the cylinder was purchased, really put in use (many cylinders were only put in use much later than the manufacturing date, I bought in 2007 new cylinder from Anschutz and got cylinders with 1-2003 as manufacturing date, thank you Anschutz), how often the cylinder was refilled, how/in what conditions they were used...
- taking the manufacturing date as start of the 10 years is easy: no hassle with the date of purchase of the cylinder.
- stating 10 year is easy: probably a very safe/condervative duration.
- no re-test: no logistics, equipment, people for after sale service of the cylinders, just selling new one... and selling complete new pistols if the type of cylinder isn't manufactured anymore (its the manufacturing date that starts the 10 years duration => its useless to stock new/unused cylinders, you need to buy/find newly manufactured one !).

Another point, it is interesting to see these new rules (manufacturers and ISSF) appearing now = its about ten years from now that the switch to PCP technology occured !

Lats point, the two new rules (ISSF+manufacturers) put the whole responsibility in case of accident on the shooters. What shooter will now dare to use expired cylinders ?

David Levene wrote:Is it any wonder that there is confusion.

Looking at Steyr pistol manuals:-

LP5P & LP10 - no mention of changing cylinders

My LP10 Manual has:

7. Replacing and Refilling the compressed-air cylinder

The legal requirements and rules of the respective country must be adhered to. Compressed-air cylinders have to be inspected after 10 years exclusively by the manufacturer. It is the responsibility of the customer to return the cylinders to the manufacturer.

The date on my cylinder is 2006 (although I think I bought it end of 2007)

My LP5 manual has no mention of the 10 year rule.... I bought it a few months ago second hand and its cylinder date is 2001!

Steve.

SteveR wrote:

David Levene wrote:Is it any wonder that there is confusion.

Looking at Steyr pistol manuals:-

LP5P & LP10 - no mention of changing cylinders

My LP10 Manual has:

7. Replacing and Refilling the compressed-air cylinder

The legal requirements and rules of the respective country must be adhered to. Compressed-air cylinders have to be inspected after 10 years exclusively by the manufacturer. It is the responsibility of the customer to return the cylinders to the manufacturer.

I was looking at the manuals on their website.

jipe wrote:Lats point, the two new rules (ISSF+manufacturers) put the whole responsibility in case of accident on the shooters. What shooter will now dare to use expired cylinders ?

Here in the UK most shooters have a liability insurance as part of their association membership. I would bet good money that the insurance companies will refuse to pay out if "expired" cylinders hurt someone.

Also, as has been mentioned earlier, clubs will have to think very carefully before continuing to use expired cylinders.

David Levene wrote:I was looking at the manuals on their website.

Even more confusing then, as you would have thought the online manuals would be the most up-to-date.

David Levene wrote:

jipe wrote:Lats point, the two new rules (ISSF+manufacturers) put the whole responsibility in case of accident on the shooters. What shooter will now dare to use expired cylinders ?

Here in the UK most shooters have a liability insurance as part of their association membership. I would bet good money that the insurance companies will refuse to pay out if "expired" cylinders hurt someone.

Also, as has been mentioned earlier, clubs will have to think very carefully before continuing to use expired cylinders.

David what is an "out of date" cylinder I have an LP10 that makes no mention what so ever of replacing, discarding or the lifespan of the cylinder?

So just that they pick a number out of the air, will not release Steyr of any liability, even if they change future manuals. Unless they take it upon themselves to actively contact those that have such cylinders and ensure that they were contacted with regards to safety concerns. Courts have found that changes or disclaimers on websites are not enough.

I sent them my warranty card, I even had personal contact with them, and they have never made mention let alone a formal notification with regards to changes in the safety features of the pistol.

So there are no expiry dates on my cylinders, there is no expiry in my manual, so again what is my actual expiry date? If you say 10 years please provide where it says that in some form of legal context, because in the rule of law if its not in writing it really doesn't exist.

David Levene wrote:

jipe wrote:Lats point, the two new rules (ISSF+manufacturers) put the whole responsibility in case of accident on the shooters. What shooter will now dare to use expired cylinders ?

Here in the UK most shooters have a liability insurance as part of their association membership. I would bet good money that the insurance companies will refuse to pay out if "expired" cylinders hurt someone.

Also, as has been mentioned earlier, clubs will have to think very carefully before continuing to use expired cylinders.

I am pretty sure that the insurance will not pay anything if the cylinder is expired => seen the risks of injury that can be caused by an exploded 200bar cylinder, knowing that a Steyr AP cylinder can be bought for about 100Euros, I also personnaly wouldn't take the risk to use an expired cylinder, even if I am convinced that the probability that it explodes is very very low.

Now another point: who has to pay to replace the cylinders ?

What is written in the user manual and what is stated in the .pdf is pretty important:

user manual wrote:The legal requirements and rules of the respective country must be adhered to. Compressed-air cylinders have to be inspected after 10 years exclusively by the manufacturer. It is the responsibility of the customer to return the cylinders to the manufacturer.

Steyr .pdf wrote:Nach einer Verordnung des Verbandes der Hersteller van Jagd-, Sportwaffen und Munition (JSM), dem die STEYR SPORTWAFFEN Gmbh angehort, gibt es nun neue Regelungen fur den Umgang mit CO2 un Druckluftkartuschen,...

Translation of Steyr .pdf wrote:According to a regulation of the National Association of Manufacturers of hunting, sporting arms and ammunition (JSM), to which STEYR SPORTWAFFEN belongs, there are now new rules for dealing with CO2 and compressed air cartridges,...

This means that its a new regulation, i.e. a change of regulation compared to what was valid when shooters bought their pistols. The change is enforced by the manufacturer association => the manufacturers should then also carry the consequences of this change of regulation, including financial consequences. What could mean exchange the cylinders for the cost of the previoulsy foreseen inspection.

Note also that the new regulation is enforced not by Steyr but well by the association of manufacturers => it will probably also be valid for all other German/Austrian brands member of this association = Anschutz, Walther, FWB... not Tesro (http://www.jsm-waffen.de/hersteller1.asp).

Richard H wrote:So there are no expiry dates on my cylinders, there is no expiry in my manual, so again what is my actual expiry date? If you say 10 years please provide where it says that in some form of legal context, because in the rule of law if its not in writing it really doesn't exist.

"in the rule of law"? According to which country?

The fact remains that if you have reason to believe that a manufacturer has put a safety time limit on one of their products, whether or not it was in force at the time when you bought the item, you would need to think long and hard about the ramifications of using it beyond the stated time. No matter whether you had been contacted directly by the manufacturer or not, if you knew about the warning I doubt whether you would get much sympathy under most judicial systems.

The situation might be different if you had no indication that a safety time limit had been issued.

David Levene wrote:

Richard H wrote:So there are no expiry dates on my cylinders, there is no expiry in my manual, so again what is my actual expiry date? If you say 10 years please provide where it says that in some form of legal context, because in the rule of law if its not in writing it really doesn't exist.

"in the rule of law"? According to which country?

The fact remains that if you have reason to believe that a manufacturer has put a safety time limit on one of their products, whether or not it was in force at the time when you bought the item, you would need to think long and hard about the ramifications of using it beyond the stated time. No matter whether you had been contacted directly by the manufacturer or not, if you knew about the warning I doubt whether you would get much sympathy under most judicial systems.

The situation might be different if you had no indication that a safety time limit had been issued.

So, are you saying that Richard has screwed himself by being involved in a conversation about possible changes in a safety time limit on air gun cylinders? I think not. A manufacturer would have to demonstrate that he has made an effort to contact his customers all along the supply chain. Putting out a note on the Internet is not sufficient.

Fred Mannis wrote:So, are you saying that Richard has screwed himself by being involved in a conversation about possible changes in a safety time limit on air gun cylinders? I think not. A manufacturer would have to demonstrate that he has made an effort to contact his customers all along the supply chain. Putting out a note on the Internet is not sufficient.

I don't really care about the legalities, the exact legal liability would obviously vary according to the jurisdiction.

Having reasonable belief that a safety warning has been issued does however trigger a "duty of care" (as you mentioned earlier in this thread). Whether that be in strictly legal terms or "merely" a moral duty doesn't matter.