I'm just chiming in at the last moment on this, and I am a prone only shooter, so take this for what it is worth.
1) What is all this crying about Camp Perry being too difficult? I was there a few times in the 1980's. Wind, hot, and rain. Has the conditions changed that I don't know about? Are there volcanoes and glaciers? Camp Perry isn't a whole lot more difficult than the Los Angeles Rifle and Revolver club range.
2) If you are whining about the conditions, then you are missing a part of the "Camp Perry Experience". If you don't understand what I am saying, then go back to your motel with TV and maid service. People need to learn how to tough it out rather than being pussies all the time. Yes, I know that attitude isn't conducive to more participation. And we shooters are not going to change the pervasive attitude in today's society
That said, yes it is bad that the sport is dying. And I believe it is largely due to the cost of being competitive and politics. And at times annoying, as just because you buy a $1500 case of Eley, doesn't mean it is going to work.
As to whether the target change will affect participation, I think it definately will not hurt, and may help. Just look at the difference in participation level in conventional prone versus metric prone.
Also, a gut feel makes me think the larger target will make the rifle/ammo combination a bit less important. The ISU target tests the ragged edge of the best guns/ammo in the world. Before we add in shooter error. Think I am wrong, then go do a bench/prone test with your gun of shooting 40 rounds into the SAME 1 bull ISU target, and tell me how much room for error you have, assuming you were able to get all 10's.
The best shoter is still going to win either way, so don't over-think this one.
Jeff
NRA Smallbore Changes- A-23 target for Camp Perry 3p
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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TomN
Now that the 3P phase of Perry has come and gone, I thought I would renew this thread and see what, if anything, has changed. (All results are available on the NRA website,
(http://www.nrahq.org/compete/champ3.asp)
There were 317 firing competitors, more or less (the math is a bit unclear) which seems in line with recent years. Juniors as a group, including Intermediate Juniors and Sub-Juniors, outnumbered Civilian competitors by more than 2-1. If you ignore the Master class (with the confounding factor of unclassified shooters) Juniors outnumber Civilian competitors by more than 3-1. Camp Perry does seem to be a Junior match with an Open division.
Regarding the target change from the A50 to the A23, the National Championship was indeed determined by X-count, with 29 Xs separating first and second place. For a long time it seemed that the eventual winner would finish in 2nd place, owing to a lower score without the Xs. While this is speculation and no knock on the eventual second place finisher's outstanding score, that score would have been bested perhaps half a dozen times if Xs received point value rather than being used as a tie breaker. This does not seem to be a desirable way of determining a national champion.
I was not at Camp Perry this year but I hope those that were will post here to give us their impressions. Congratulations to all the shooters at the National Matches.
(http://www.nrahq.org/compete/champ3.asp)
There were 317 firing competitors, more or less (the math is a bit unclear) which seems in line with recent years. Juniors as a group, including Intermediate Juniors and Sub-Juniors, outnumbered Civilian competitors by more than 2-1. If you ignore the Master class (with the confounding factor of unclassified shooters) Juniors outnumber Civilian competitors by more than 3-1. Camp Perry does seem to be a Junior match with an Open division.
Regarding the target change from the A50 to the A23, the National Championship was indeed determined by X-count, with 29 Xs separating first and second place. For a long time it seemed that the eventual winner would finish in 2nd place, owing to a lower score without the Xs. While this is speculation and no knock on the eventual second place finisher's outstanding score, that score would have been bested perhaps half a dozen times if Xs received point value rather than being used as a tie breaker. This does not seem to be a desirable way of determining a national champion.
I was not at Camp Perry this year but I hope those that were will post here to give us their impressions. Congratulations to all the shooters at the National Matches.
Yes, thankyou! I was thinking the same thing. We shot it and I still think it is a horrible mistake. The psychological differences are pretty significant. The A-50 really makes you work for points. I have not really compared but I suspect a low 9 on the A-23 is a 6 or so on the A-50. Then just to confuse things a little more they pull out the A-50's for the team match. For reference I inserted the following picture.
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TomN
For Pat, my understanding (always subject to correction by those more in the know) is that this change is part of a comprehensive change to the NRA Regionals format. Many changes were instituted trying to improve participation at tournaments, and one of these changes was to bring back the Outdoor Conventional Position course of fire as a 3P course rather than a 4P course. Conventional competitions use "easier" targets (A17 indoors rather than A36, and A23 outdoors) than used in NRA 3P or International matches. There is much discussion of this earlier in this thread.
FWIW, my take on the change is that it has not YET yielded the results intended. It may take a few years for that to sort itself out. The change that I think will yield the best results in improving participation happened only recently, with NRA waiving the membership requirement to participate in Registered matches (as opposed to Approved matches.) This removes a major financial disincentive to attend NRA-sanctioned competitions, and was long overdue. I hope to see more casual shooters at NRA tournaments in the future.
FWIW, my take on the change is that it has not YET yielded the results intended. It may take a few years for that to sort itself out. The change that I think will yield the best results in improving participation happened only recently, with NRA waiving the membership requirement to participate in Registered matches (as opposed to Approved matches.) This removes a major financial disincentive to attend NRA-sanctioned competitions, and was long overdue. I hope to see more casual shooters at NRA tournaments in the future.
Tom I think you are right.
Where I live, in Morgantown, WV, smallbore shooting is pretty much unheard of other than at the University. When you do find someone in the area who once participated you find that at one time there were leagues and ranges in every little town around. Now all that is gone and nobody even knows about the sport. There are a lot of things at work here and to think that changing to easier targets is going to bring us back to that time is, I think, a little rediculous. I think that some of the basis for the thinking is that the NRA has run a match at their range for some years using this format. It has been a very popular match and I think they think it is because of the format. I think it is because it is a very nice indoor 50yd range and it would be a popular match on any target.
Where I live, in Morgantown, WV, smallbore shooting is pretty much unheard of other than at the University. When you do find someone in the area who once participated you find that at one time there were leagues and ranges in every little town around. Now all that is gone and nobody even knows about the sport. There are a lot of things at work here and to think that changing to easier targets is going to bring us back to that time is, I think, a little rediculous. I think that some of the basis for the thinking is that the NRA has run a match at their range for some years using this format. It has been a very popular match and I think they think it is because of the format. I think it is because it is a very nice indoor 50yd range and it would be a popular match on any target.
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isuguncoach
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new target
One question we should ask is how has the change affected the number of shooters at Regional and local matches that have come back to the old A-23?
Again check it out with NRA Headquarters. An increased participation at this level should be a great indication of the success of the change in targets.
With so much vocal resistance to reinstating the "old" target, and how easy it will be for the "professional" shooters to win Camp Perry, has any one bothered to check out who won the Position Championship.
Joe
Again check it out with NRA Headquarters. An increased participation at this level should be a great indication of the success of the change in targets.
With so much vocal resistance to reinstating the "old" target, and how easy it will be for the "professional" shooters to win Camp Perry, has any one bothered to check out who won the Position Championship.
Joe
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1813benny
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Re: new target
SPC George Norton - USAMU - dropped a total of 26 points.isuguncoach wrote:One question we should ask is how has the change affected the number of shooters at Regional and local matches that have come back to the old A-23?
Again check it out with NRA Headquarters. An increased participation at this level should be a great indication of the success of the change in targets.
With so much vocal resistance to reinstating the "old" target, and how easy it will be for the "professional" shooters to win Camp Perry, has any one bothered to check out who won the Position Championship.
Joe
Regional attendance may be up due only to competitors having to obtain a new classification for the target change - so a true success on wether or not this was a good move can only be evaluated over a 2-3 year period.
I don't claim to have any answers. But I remember the opposite situation. Back in the late 60's I was shooting in an indoor winter 4p league in St. Louis. My memory is poor, but I remember we used the A-17. Most everyone was classified a master. Then one season we switched to the fly speck target. Don't remember if it had a number, we just called it the fly speck target. I remember it looked a lot like the a-36. Anyhow there was much complaining so we switched back to the A-17 the next season. Kind of the opposite of the situation we have now.
Fast forward to the early 90's and I returned to smallbore shooting. To my surprise very few shot 4p anymore. And 3p used the more difficult a36. There is rumor we will all be switching to the even more difficult usa50 in a year or 2. Very few are masters, most seem to be Marksmen or sharpshooter.
I think the biggest thing here is we tend to resist change. Which is best I don't know. I am still confused about the classification system. I shot my first match yesterday with the a23. I am classified expert outdoors but shot way above master if you use the classification system in the rulebook for outdoor 3p. Yet when I tried to figure what my score might have been on the a51 target I think my score would have been a bit below expert. The rulebook makes no mention of 3p using the a23 target. I have sent an email to nra rifle division to get a clarification. I also wonder if this outdoor target change seems successful to the nra rules committee if they will start using the a17 indoors for 3p.
Rich
Fast forward to the early 90's and I returned to smallbore shooting. To my surprise very few shot 4p anymore. And 3p used the more difficult a36. There is rumor we will all be switching to the even more difficult usa50 in a year or 2. Very few are masters, most seem to be Marksmen or sharpshooter.
I think the biggest thing here is we tend to resist change. Which is best I don't know. I am still confused about the classification system. I shot my first match yesterday with the a23. I am classified expert outdoors but shot way above master if you use the classification system in the rulebook for outdoor 3p. Yet when I tried to figure what my score might have been on the a51 target I think my score would have been a bit below expert. The rulebook makes no mention of 3p using the a23 target. I have sent an email to nra rifle division to get a clarification. I also wonder if this outdoor target change seems successful to the nra rules committee if they will start using the a17 indoors for 3p.
Rich
The outdoor 3p classification is for use with the A50 target. You'd need to use the conventional classification for the A-23 target. I agree with much of what you said. I shot way back when when most everyone in the US shot either the A-17 or A-23 too. I missed the switch to A50 but was glad to see it when I started shooting again. Now (until recently) the world had pretty much standardized on the international target. Collegiate has moved to the USA-50.
One thing I hope is not lost at Perry is having the top shooters there. It is always a cool for our juniors to shoot along side these folks. I know this year it was sparse because it was an olympic year. It is hard to imagine why a top shooter, who is trying to get to and win world cups, would want to shoot a match on this target though.
One thing I hope is not lost at Perry is having the top shooters there. It is always a cool for our juniors to shoot along side these folks. I know this year it was sparse because it was an olympic year. It is hard to imagine why a top shooter, who is trying to get to and win world cups, would want to shoot a match on this target though.